widjayaman wrote:
My suggestion - and this probably won't be a popular one, is to create a new, more expensive brand and keep the old one going. Get a new, much more modern website under a different name. Create a sense of exclusivity and high-class. Put your best work there to start. See how that works for you. The 2 brands will be so far apart in price that you won't be interfering with your current client base.
Given Marti's current situation and his view on his market, I like this idea and was actually going to suggest it myself. I can understand the fear of losing what little business one might currently have by alienating your current client base. Keep what you currently have going, even if it isn't bringing in the income you need, while you focus on positioning your new brand.
cineski wrote:
The $1000-2000 price bracket is where most brides are in SoCal.....and they want the world for that price (2 photogs, all day, album).
cineski wrote:
I also had to revamp myself because a few years ago the coordinators I did have bottomed out....their brides suddenly wanted $1000-2500 photography which I don't provide. I had to work very hard and move into the high end of the spectrum.
Marti, any idea what the competition is like in the $2500+ market in Rancho Cucamonga? How is the quality of the other photographers in that price bracket? You've said previously that there are several area photographers who you think are better than you but then I hear members here say you do quality work. I'd really like to see your website if you wouldn't mind posting a link.
cineski wrote:
Marti, I'm going to be constructively harsh. You sound miserable. You probably sound miserable to your clients. I know you think you're hiding it, but you're probably not. I think you've described before that you're in your 50's and I can imagine this entire experience is not fun by any means for you. You already paid your dues with building your business, and now you're having to re-build. You're not alone. I know a lot of people in the industry in their 50's and there's a lot of people hurting and freaking out and having to rebuild what as of a few years ago was a lucrative, well oiled machine. These are very talented people who have gotten caught up in the market. In my experience, you're only as good as who you photograph and who you work with (coordinators). ...Show more →
I'm not trying to attack you, just offer my point of view which admittedly isn't based on all the facts, but this is an issue you need to address. I've long recognized your name and avatar here on FM but it was only very recently that you really stuck out on the forum due to threads like "Introvert/Standoffish" and posts in the "Venue rules" thread and how you respond to other member's posts. You've said you recently closed your studio and moved into your garage, and coupled with your current prices and how many bookings you've had this year, I appreciate the stress you're probably under, but most of the members here are trying to help.
You may not like the answer of "raise your prices," but what other answers are you expecting? If you need to make more money, you can either charge higher prices or book more clients. That's pretty much it. Instead of responding with snide remarks, like calling people over-priced when they seem to have a successful photography business, why not instead follow up with asking how they suggest going about raising your prices given your situation.
I completely hear you and this isn't a battle of the bad states (although CA is #50 of places to do business in the US ). There are some very hard hit states in this country, I'm just responding to people on here even in other countries that Marti was getting into it with. CA is so bass-ackwards to do business in at times it can be quite infuriating. But it's not the end of the world if you can maneuver through it.
Inku Yo wrote:
All due respect, but you're talking as if California is the only place feeling the effects of this current economy. Sorry to break it to you, but it's not. Here in NJ, it's mind boggling how many "photographers" there are. I was added to an NJ photographer group on FB a while back. It really opened my eyes to 1) how many people really wanted to be professional photographers, and 2) how bad 99% of them were. Oh, and 3) how many of them really, REALLY wanted to be like J*.
Welcome and nice first post! Hit the nail on the head. Life's not easy for anyone. But it's definitely not easy for a photographer charging $500-1000.
Juliewhitlock wrote:
I'm going to guess that there are brides who would be willing to pay you more but aren't because of what you charge. If a bride has $3000.00 to spend and knows that is what good photographers cost they aren't going to look at you. It's like If someone was offering me a $20,000 Bentley and telling me it's perfectly fine. It's like all the rest.Yeah... I'd be wondering what was wrong with it. You're probably losing more brides with low costing than gaining them. If your work is really as good as people are saying they are most likely looking at it and thinking " What don't I know?". Does this guy have no insurance, no back-up gear, no personality? Why the low price? Then they move on to the person with the same ( or less) quality of work that is asking what they expect a good photographer to charge. I basically live in the economic armpit of Canada. There are about 100 wedding photographers in a very small area. Most charge $500-$1000.00. I still manage to book 25-30 weddings a year at an average of $3000.00/ wedding for little more than a shoot and burn. You can do it. You just need to believe you can. People can smell desperation. Best of luck to you! I hope things look up soon! ...Show more →
cineski wrote:
Jerald, did you know you're quoting me but responding to Marti?
Yes. It sounds like you're familiar with the SoCal market so I using your prices to ask Marti his thoughts on the quality of photographers in that bracket and whether or not he can compete there.
Shoot to burn 4 hours work sounds great. You can't get that kind of money out of a studio in newyork. $225 an hour isn't the worst. Not everyone cares about there wedding enough to spend 3k. I would never advertise with that price but I would take it for easy money.
The value of photography is going to be different for every person. That's why you sell them at a meeting. For photographers, we understand that good photos are worth an arm and a leg. Most couples would like to only pay about $300-$500 for photos for their wedding. Why is this? Photography isn't seen as an integral part of a wedding by over 60% of the couples getting married. Why? The primary concern for couples nowadays seem to be booking a venue for everyone to get together, booking food which has become an increasingly larger part of a wedding due to TV and media, and getting "costumes" aka wedding dress, bridesmaid dresses, tuxes, suits, etc... Nearly 85% of the couples that plan their own wedding don't even consider photography until the rest of that is done. So yes Marti, I do feel for your predicament with the "problems" with photography budget. I offer a $999.99 price point myself because I think it's just enough for a couple to pay to have great photos. I would have bought my own package myself for my wedding except that I got anally raped for my photos from 3 photographers which were required due to restrictions of my wedding venue. Had I booked with one of my other photographer buddies much earlier, I would have paid their expenses for the trip and would have had even more epic photos. I didn't put enough thought into the photos that now seem priceless because like the usual couple, I wanted to only pay $300-500. That's a mistake I hope to prevent for others getting married. For just a little bit more, a quality wedding package is available.
marti.g3 wrote:
Whatever Sergio.....another 2 seconds of wisdom from you as expected. Now go back
to playing with yourself moron.
You know NOTHING about my business, a business that I run legally, pay my taxes,
provide quality products in terms of albums and images, provide my clients with
an honest, ethical business experience. But as for you, from your remarks, it shows
what kind of person you aren't.
And I thought I was the designated FM asshole. Guess I was wrong.
Dude seriously? I've been watching your posts the last 6 months. You're turning in to a nut case. You might need to see a DR, get a good bottle of something tasty and sit back and relax for a weekend. Then rethink your business structure, raise your prices and enjoy life. $900 for a wedding? $1200 for your wifes boss? You are priced in the market of asshole low level brides. Raise your prices to get out of the craigslist market and in to a real market. Hell, not even raise it that much. When we were doing weddings for $1500 we would get the same bullshit you get. Then when we started pricing at $3k,$4k, $5k and higher. We got less inquiries, did less weddings but made more money and had less questions and negotiations from brides. Our price was our price. You priced yourself to be in a bracket of people that dont give a shit and yet your pissed because the people that dont give a shit, well they just dont give a shit.
You will not hear a bride say your too expensive or ask for a BIG discount when your priced in the right level.
Good luck with that and you probably should change your attitude. But who am I to talk. I tell it how it is and will be the first person on this board to tell someone to go fucken themselves. Serg was being honest and true. Be it you like it or not, take it and make some changes dude.
You said if this keeps up you will collect food stamps and wellfare. Well that just goes to show your education and mentality is worse than most of our ghetto people of walmart mentality out there. Ummm there is a thing called a job. When what you are doing isnt paying the bills anymore, most people go get another job or A job. Its people like you that make me hate our country even more. You decide you cant make it so you stop trying and wont get a job and work and would rather collect free money from people like me that work a day job and run a full time business and my wife works as a teacher and gives back to the community.
Maybe you're not too expensive for the brides, maybe they dont like your attitude.
your $895 package has me curious. and i havent seen this mentioned in the thread. can you make a living on this? if you can, i guess all who say 'raise your prices' can go suck it.
if you cant, why offer that as a pricing offer?
Apparently he is and he can. If you do the math on it, you can do survive at price point as long as you're not doing anything outside of shoot and burn (read: no post time) and you can keep that volume up. As soon as the volume drops off, you're in trouble. As long as his referral market is strong (which is sounds like it is), there is no reason he can't keep going at that rate. The market is there. Personally I couldn't imagine shooting that many in a year. I like family time and time for other things.
amslerphoto wrote:
Shoot to burn 4 hours work sounds great. You can't get that kind of money out of a studio in newyork. $225 an hour isn't the worst. Not everyone cares about there wedding enough to spend 3k. I would never advertise with that price but I would take it for easy money.
Problem is that you're committing yourself to a 995 wedding, which means you can't book a 3000 (or 5000) wedding that day.
There are several things I don't understand here. One, marti's attitude in this thread is no different from anything I've seen from him the last few months. He's like form on anti-depressants. For someone who's been in the business as long as he is, it shocks me the questions he asks on here, like he needs someone else's (some person on a forum?!) to advise him about the very basics of running a wedding photography business. And what amazes me is how many ppl respond to him.
Then he complains they're not being helpful? This guy should be paying $1000/yr to FM for all the advice he gets.
But more importantly, sure, the economy downturn means that fewer people are spending more on wedding photography but there's still a solid number of brides out there spending $3k or more on their weddings. There are lots of wedding photographers, doing 100, 150, and even up to 300 weddings a year -- although obviously many use associates as primaries. But if you offer $895, that's what you're going to get. Someone said he's missing out on the higher-end market cuz the brides will think something is wrong here, him charging so little, and they'll pass on him. I couldn't agree more!
But what really needs to change is marti's attitude. Until he sees his situation as a challenge, he can't win. All he does is freakin complain. But I have to admit, I get a kick out of all this. I'm just glad I'm not down there looking up at the mean 'ol world all around me, and all these mean 'ol FMers who won't empathize.
Sorry, I'm new to this, but I'm busy. I got a bride to call back.
marti.g3 wrote:
So one can't complain ? I thought that's what forums were for, to share with colleagues, not to share something then get bashed by a handful of idiots. No wonder there are so many lurkers on this forum.
Anyone being honest and sharing gets slammed instead of colleagues trying to be helpful. I don't really care about that as I will give it right back.
But for those who like to bash instead of help, you are the reason so many members only lurk and if you like to get it back, i'm your guy.
marti, look... I did a little digging myself and found out who you are. Your website isn't great but your work is not bad. You CAN be charging more, and I don't buy into the whole 'my area is cheap' excuse. You are in California for the love of god, how cheap can the people in your town possibly be.
The problem is that you start so low that you're getting inquiries from the worst types of clients. You should really be starting at 2-3k minimum, without changing what that includes. You'll find that you get a lot less of these terrible inquiries when your price starts going up, and you won't have to work as much to make the same amount of money.
The fact of the matter is that you are undercutting other photographers. You are that craigslist guy.
So no, you can not complain here if you continue to ignore the sound advice you've received from every single person (granted, dished out with an attitude, but you have to understand how frustrating it is for all of us when someone is really stubborn and refuses to accept advice and continues to whine about the same problems over and over).
). There are some very hard hit states in this country, I'm just responding to people on here even in other countries that Marti was getting into it with. CA is so bass-ackwards to do business in at times it can be quite infuriating. But it's not the end of the world if you can maneuver through it.