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Archive 2012 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?
  
 
jorkata
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


OK, but you can see from the 5DIII PCB that there just isn't enough room for a second Digic5+.
Consequently, this rumored 46mp camera will have to come in a different form factor than the 5DIII.
Or, it won't have dual Digic5+ chips - and won't be able to do 46mp @ 5fps..

As for the 7DII (if there will be a 7DII) - it won't have dual Digic5+ chips for sure.



Sep 27, 2012 at 09:56 PM
Monito
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


RobDickinson wrote:
Theres also a limit on how quickly they can read data off the sensor, more read channels allow faster harvesting of the sensor data but introduce other issues. Its not all about the digic raw processing power.


Yes.

You don't need two DIgics for a high-res low fps or no fps camera.

You don't need faster harvesting of the sensor data for a high-res low fps camera.

You don't need doubled data paths and larger circuit boards and extra electrical consumption and extra heat generation.

With lower throughput you can let the user use slower much less expensive large cards.

The target markets for high-res cameras don't need high speed bells & whistles.

High speed mirror boxes and shutters and low shutter lag and fast readout and high volume throughput are extra expenses not needed in high-res cameras. That's how Canon could release a sub 5D3 high res camera and have it sell well in several markets.

Eventually there will be 50 Mpx full-frame DSLRs for low cost and high performance, but not this decade.



Sep 27, 2012 at 10:01 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


jorkata wrote:
Here's the 5DIII PCB. The 7DII PCB will be either the same size (maybe even the same PCB) - or smaller.

And you can be 100% sure that if Canon didn't put dual Digic5+ in the $3500 5DIII, they certainly won't do it in a sub $2000 1.6x crop model.

http://www.canonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/5d3_08.jpg


Have an image of the 7D PCB? I'd like to see how digic IV compares in size. As we've seen in 7D, price is hardly the reason they wouldn't install dual digic chips.

So I think we can be far less than a 100% sure we'll never see another camera under the 1 series with dual digic chips.
They could potentially put a second PCB in the camera. The older cameras like 40D have several PCB's that folded to fit in the camera. They have since simplified the designs and get it on to one PCB, but I'm sure they could fit 2 digic V+ if they wanted/needed to.



Sep 27, 2012 at 10:12 PM
Ziffl3
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Looks like Canon needs more real-estate for I/O.
A 2nd DiGiC5 could be mounted on a smaller, stacked PCB.
Then comes power and cross talk requirements.



Sep 27, 2012 at 10:19 PM
jorkata
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Have an image of the 7D PCB? I'd like to see how digic IV compares in size. As we've seen in 7D, price is hardly the reason they wouldn't install dual digic chips.


Canon has one on their web site. The scaling is different, though:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_7d?selectedName=Features


So I think we can be far less than a 100% sure we'll never see another camera under the 1 series with dual digic chips.


I think we can.

First of all, notice that Digic5 + is different from Digic5.

By the look of things, Digic5+ is a dual-core Digic5.
Consequently, it's very likely that Canon will be using Digic5+ for everything dual, since a dual-core Digic5+ design is simpler and cheaper than having two single-core Digic5s.

Thus, it's actually very unlikely that the 7DII (if there's a 7DII) will be using anything other than a single Digic5+ chip.

This brings an interesting point.
We don't know the exact throughput of the Digic5+ chips.
But if the 7DII keeps the 8fps frame rate, it's very, very likely that it will have at most 18-20 megapixels, as it's doubtful that the Digic5+ can handle a frame rate of 8fps with higher resolutions.

After the 6D, the chances that the 7D will remain in the lineup have increased.
And logic tells me that 7DII will have a 16mp low-noise 1.6x sensor, while the 70D and the rebels will get 22mp sensors.
But this is Canon that we are talking about, so who knows what nonsensical thing they will come up with.



Edited on Sep 27, 2012 at 10:58 PM · View previous versions



Sep 27, 2012 at 10:44 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


jorkata wrote:
o, let's say this 46mp camera costs $7000.
Would that be in any way competitive with the $3000/36mp Nikon D800?
I would think not.


Like I wrote. Many pages ago. ;-)

And, on a slightly different subject, there is sure a whole lot of wild, wild speculation in this thread...



Sep 27, 2012 at 10:53 PM
Ziffl3
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


jorkata wrote:
Canon has one on their web site. The scaling is different, though:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_7d?selectedName=Features

I think we can.

First of all, notice that Digic5 + is different from Digic5.

By the look of things, Digic5+ is a dual-core Digic5.
Consequently, it's very likely that Canon will be using Digic5+ for everything dual, since a dual-core Digic5+ design is simpler and cheaper than having two single-core Digic5s.

Thus, it's actually very unlikely that the 7DII (if there's a 7DII) will be using anything other than a single Digic5+ chip.

This brings an interesting point.
We don't know the exact throughput of the Digic5+ chips.
But if the 7DII keeps the
...Show more

you seem to be missing a kind of overall point of view: You need to account for the sensor and its I/O and how it would pair up with the DiGiC5+ and other associated hardware/software.



Sep 27, 2012 at 11:08 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Supposedly 7D II is getting new 24MP APS-C sensor and I doubt they will drop fps. The Sony A77 can do 12fps with 24MP, so I'd be surprised if Canon could not offer something similar. Or they might have digic V++ in the pipeline


Sep 27, 2012 at 11:10 PM
ausemmao
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Roland W wrote:
The whole idea of getting much improved dynamic range by doing two simultaneous exposures centered on the same point in time seems a little messy, but may have potential. In thinking about good ways to do that, my mind diverted to a little different concept to achieve the same effect. How about keeping the large photo sites for the lower light, and interlacing another full set of smaller photo sites among the larger ones, with the smaller ones handling the brighter part of the scene. Some pattern similar to the Bayer pattern could be worked out, and you may
...Show more

Fuji says hello.

Their "Super CCD" in the S5 used pretty much the scheme you described, and had DR in 2006 that's only just being matched now.



Sep 27, 2012 at 11:17 PM
jorkata
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Ziffl3 wrote:
you seem to be missing a kind of overall point of view: You need to account for the sensor and its I/O and how it would pair up with the DiGiC5+ and other associated hardware/software.


You can see from the 5DIII and 1DX PCBs posted earlier that a single Digic5+ handles 8 readout channels.

For example, the 1DX has 16 readout channels and hence needs two Digic5+ chips.
The 5DIII has 8-channel, so it has a single Digic5+ chip.

The current 7D sensor has 8 channels, so a single Digic5+ chips is already capable of handling this sensor.

The thing is, why would Canon make the 7DII sensor with 16 readout channels .
I don't see this happening. Thus, a single Digic5+ will suffice for the 7DII.

Of course having a single Digic5+ will limit the number of megapixels that the 7DII can have.
24mp is unrealistic, IMO, but I could be wrong.




Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 PM
 

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EB-1
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


It could use a Digic 6.

EBH



Sep 27, 2012 at 11:33 PM
alundeb
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


jorkata wrote:
Of course having a single Digic5+ will limit the number of megapixels that the 7DII can have.
24mp is unrealistic, IMO, but I could be wrong.



Of course Canon is able to increase throughput with 33% from 18 to 24 MP in a 3 years product upgrade cycle.



Sep 28, 2012 at 05:37 AM
skibum5
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Have an image of the 7D PCB? I'd like to see how digic IV compares in size. As we've seen in 7D, price is hardly the reason they wouldn't install dual digic chips.

So I think we can be far less than a 100% sure we'll never see another camera under the 1 series with dual digic chips.
They could potentially put a second PCB in the camera. The older cameras like 40D have several PCB's that folded to fit in the camera. They have since simplified the designs and get it on to one PCB, but I'm sure they
...Show more

It might get a bit tight but that PCB is just one layer and looks a bit sparse, they might be able to just fit dual digic 5+. I think digic iv was a bit smaller. Don't know about power requirements.



Sep 28, 2012 at 06:02 AM
skibum5
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Roland W wrote:
The whole idea of getting much improved dynamic range by doing two simultaneous exposures centered on the same point in time seems a little messy, but may have potential. In thinking about good ways to do that, my mind diverted to a little different concept to achieve the same effect. How about keeping the large photo sites for the lower light, and interlacing another full set of smaller photo sites among the larger ones, with the smaller ones handling the brighter part of the scene. Some pattern similar to the Bayer pattern could be worked out, and you may
...Show more

didn't fuji try that out?



Sep 28, 2012 at 06:04 AM
jorkata
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


alundeb wrote:
Of course Canon is able to increase throughput with 33% from 18 to 24 MP in a 3 years product upgrade cycle.


Sure, the same way they were able to increase the resolution on the 5DIII with a whopping ... 1mp .
And that's after a 3.5 years product cycle.



Sep 28, 2012 at 06:16 AM
alundeb
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


jorkata wrote:
Sure, the same way they were able to increase the resolution on the 5DIII with a whopping ... 1mp .
And that's after a 3.5 years product cycle.


Don't be silly.

One Digic 5 is 6 times faster than a Digic 4.



Sep 28, 2012 at 07:11 AM
jorkata
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Seriously, I think the problem with 24mp @ 8fps is actually readout speed, not Digic throughput.

Maybe Canon will move to a column-parallel ADC architecture like Sony.
Then they will be able to do very high speed readouts.

But if they keep their current architecture, with off-sensor ADCs, I don't think they will do it.
Certainly not with 8 readout channels, like on the current 7D.
And as I said arleady, I don't think they will use 16 channels on a sub $2000 1.6x model (considering that they did not use it on a $3500 FF model).

All speculation and fun, of course.



Sep 28, 2012 at 07:20 AM
alundeb
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


It is good to see that you are not silly

How about 12 channels



Sep 28, 2012 at 07:25 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


alundeb wrote:
Don't be silly.

One Digic 5 is 6 times faster than a Digic 4.


digic V+ is 17x more powerful than digivc IV, but that does not mean it can read data 17x faster. That is it's processing power and that was mainly brought in for video processing. Given the digic IV on 1D IV could do 10fps @ 16.1MP and digic V+ can do 12fps @ 18MP, this seems to put digic V+ throughput at around 34% faster than digic IV, which appears a lot less of a n improvement than digic IV was over digic III. 1D III could do 10fps @ 10.1MP, so digic IV is ~ 60% faster than digic III.



Sep 28, 2012 at 07:56 AM
alundeb
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · 46.1 MP Canon EOS-3D X To Be Announced Before PhotoPlus ?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
digic V+ is 17x more powerful than digivc IV, but that does not mean it can read data 17x faster. That is it's processing power and that was mainly brought in for video processing. Given the digic IV on 1D IV could do 10fps @ 16.1MP and digic V+ can do 12fps @ 18MP, this seems to put digic V+ throughput at around 34% faster than digic IV, which appears a lot less of a n improvement than digic IV was over digic III. 1D III could do 10fps @ 10.1MP, so digic IV is ~ 60% faster than
...Show more

If the Digic V can only input 34% more data than a Digic IV, a hypothetical 7DII will not be able to even do 8 fps at 18 MP with one digic V. Some of us will be surprised by the next release.




Sep 28, 2012 at 08:43 AM
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