Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

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frank gross
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p.1 #1 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

I'm trying to decide between the EX-1 & a Sony Nex 6.
I have seen or tried neither
Assuming both produce the same image quality

Fuji EX1 -

Easier to access the controls (exp. compensation etc) via dials vs the Sony being more menu based.
More solid (metal) build.
Kit lens is faster - f2.8-4 vs f3.5-5.6.
This is a big one for low light & indoor (no flash) shooting

Sony Nex 6 -
Has a tilt screen which I loooove for waist-level shooting.
It's cheaper - about $1000 vs $1400

I have big hands (XL glove size) so the ergonomics for me are important.

Also important is the coat pocketability - I want a camera that i have no excuse to leave at home - just grab 'n go. I have a big dslr with lenses so I'm not looking for a system camera per se

Sep 13, 2012 at 01:58 PM

Joseph Marney
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p.1 #2 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Unfortunately, you can't assume they produce the same image quality. Fuji doesn't seem to have made any correction to the watercolor effect visible in many images. :-(

Sep 13, 2012 at 02:00 PM

Jochenb
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p.1 #3 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

I'm very interested in the X-E1, because I really like those Fuji colors. The watercolor problem might be a deal breaker though...
Even an X-E1 sample photo on their website shows this very well. Here we talked about it:
link

Sep 13, 2012 at 02:14 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #4 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Interesting. I had not known about this and it doesnt appear as an issue on other review sites.
Was it an issue with the fixed lens Fuji X100 as well?

Sep 13, 2012 at 02:30 PM

misternikko
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p.1 #5 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

nope...

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:14 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #6 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

...so the X100 has a different sensor to the EX-1 & XPro1 ?

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:16 PM

FlyPenFly
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p.1 #7 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Yeah, it's a completely different sensor... not even the same megapixels.

I can't see how you can comfortably fit either camera with a lens on in a coat pocket without looking ridiculous.

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:28 PM

flashinm
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p.1 #8 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Joseph Marney wrote:
Unfortunately, you can't assume they produce the same image quality. Fuji doesn't seem to have made any correction to the watercolor effect visible in many images. :-(

This is a software problem, IMO. RPP shows excellent detail with zero watercolor effect, although as Tariq pointed out there are some false color problems in certain circumstances (I would disagree that these are "horrible" as they only come up in very specific circumstances). Fuji doesn't need to change their sensor, Raw developers just need more time to master the Fuji files. Capture One is still working on it, and I have high hopes for them.

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:30 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #9 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

RPP shows excellent detail with zero watercolor effect,

Excuse my ignorance but what is rpp?

Re: raw files - can't you just convert them to DNG (free converter from adobe) - isnt that a viable workaround?

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:38 PM

flashinm
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p.1 #10 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

RPP is Raw Photo Processor and is only available for Mac. Any DCRAW based raw converter (like Helicon filter) seems to be the best option for Windows and delivers detail on par with RPP (no watercolor either).

Unfortunately, converting to DNG is not an acceptable work around. The results are slightly better than straight lightroom, but still show a lot of detail smearing.

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:43 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #11 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

flashinm wrote:
Joseph Marney wrote:
Unfortunately, you can't assume they produce the same image quality. Fuji doesn't seem to have made any correction to the watercolor effect visible in many images. :-(

This is a software problem, IMO. RPP shows excellent detail with zero watercolor effect, although as Tariq pointed out there are some false color problems in certain circumstances (I would disagree that these are "horrible" as they only come up in very specific circumstances). Fuji doesn't need to change their sensor, Raw developers just need more time to master the Fuji files. Capture One is still working on it, and I have high hopes for them.

At base ISO, even with RPP, the NEX-5N still looks better in regards to detail and aliasing, let alone the NEX-7. As theSuede has mentioned, you're just not going to get as much color resolution with Trans-X as you will with Bayer in good light, and that's assuming ideal raw conversion, which isn't available yet.

If I spent all my time at ISO 1600+, I'd consider a Trans-X camera, but, I don't, and I'm a little bummed that my X100 will probably be the end of the line for me in terms of Fuji for a while.

Straight out of RPP with everything off at ISO 200, guess which is the 5N and which is the X-Pro1:

camera 1:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

camera 2:

camera 1:

camera 2:

camera 1:

camera 2:

Sep 13, 2012 at 03:49 PM

flashinm
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p.1 #12 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Hard to say. I think Camera 2 produces slightly more detail, but I prefer the color from Camera 1 (may have something to do with the obvious exposure difference). Either way, if you are picking between the two cameras based on that, you're foolish IMO. They are very close and other factors are sure to outweigh any differences shown by these samples.

Sep 13, 2012 at 04:06 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #13 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

These are just of a few of about a million samples that I've seen or worked with in the past few months.

To be honest, the fact that you'd pick camera 1 for color, despite the obvious color aliasing all over the place in the women's face, pin above the wheel, the wheel, etc., shows why Fuji isn't worried about changing things.

Sep 13, 2012 at 04:14 PM

flashinm
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p.1 #14 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

I mean no offense by this, but Fuji shouldn't be worried about changing things. I preferred the colors of camera 1 because they look punchier and more vibrant. The things that you pointed out are TINY problems that only matter to the type of person that would look at "about a million samples" at 100% looking for differences between these two.

Sep 13, 2012 at 04:29 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #15 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

To me #2 is clearly better.
Colour tweaks are easily performed afterwards in Raw processing or in PS etc

Sep 13, 2012 at 04:39 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #16 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

flashinm wrote:
I mean no offense by this, but Fuji shouldn't be worried about changing things. I preferred the colors of camera 1 because they look punchier and more vibrant. The things that you pointed out are TINY problems that only matter to the type of person that would look at "about a million samples" at 100% looking for differences between these two.

The color you're talking about is just a matter of raw color profiling, which is relying on the converter in this case. This is a study of aliasing and color artifacts, which are all over the place, even with RPP. Add this to the smearing of green foliage, and I'll stick with bayer for now.

This isn't a witch hunt or anything. There just isn't a free lunch with X-trans. You're trading a little bit of low ISO IQ for better high ISO IQ, which appeals to many. Pick your poison kinda thing.

Sep 13, 2012 at 04:52 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #17 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

douglasf13,
As i said I prefer #2. So if this is the nex 5n then does it logicall follow that i would likely prefer the Nex 6 over the Fuji EX-1 (or even the Fuji X100 for that matter) ?
These are the cameras I'm considering right now.
I do do low light shooting - indoors (without flash), late evenings, and even night on rarer occasion. but I spend most of my time in the 200-800 iso range.
Or is the sensor/raw processing field levelled with the right kind of raw conversion software?

Sep 13, 2012 at 05:06 PM

flashinm
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p.1 #18 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Fair enough, I just think it's an issue of Raw converters not yet mastering the Trans X sensor. RPP has shown that the detail smoothing can be solved, but they still have a problem with color artifacts. I'll pull up Helicon Filter again and see if it has the same false color problems. My point is simply, if you are looking at 100% crops and this is the difference you are seeing, then maybe other factors (ergonomics, lens line up, etc) should be affecting your decision. Not small flaws that you have to search to find at 100%.

Sep 13, 2012 at 05:08 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #19 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

Flashinm, assuredly, as raw converters get better, the Trans-X output will get much better. According, to Joachim, though, even in a perfect raw conversion, "The Fujifilm principle will in any case never get better than 50% of the Bayer chroma resolution, an inherent property of the scheme. At higher ISOs this turns into an advantage in stead of a disadvantage." It's simply a trade off, but it may not be enough to worry about.

Frank, it's really tough to say which camera to pick, based on output. You may find that the high ISO improvement outweighs the low ISO occasional issues. For me, I'm sticking with bayer, at least for the time being, which, as an X100 owner, kinda stinks, because I certainly want to like the new Fujis.

Sep 13, 2012 at 05:16 PM

frank gross
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p.1 #20 · Fuji EX-1 & Sony Nex-6 ?

All Fuji = Trans-X (incl. the x100?)
All Sony = Bayer
?

Sep 13, 2012 at 05:19 PM

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