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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)
  
 
philip_pj
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p.155 #1 · p.155 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Shrugs..maybe you are right, Douglas...though it's hard for me to imagine what might be done with an RX100 sensor. Halo is where I want Sony to be!

Having read some stories of sensor and even rear element lens dust being a problem I am very cosy using the RX1 and would enjoy 1-2 more, assuming equal quality. Not a 50mm for me - wider or longer is OK. It's not your style maybe but an 85mm would be a sensation to use in many circumstances, for some of us.

And just a link to something RX1-istas may enjoy:
http://thegoldensieve.com/the-wedding-photographers-sony-rx1/



Aug 03, 2013 at 05:20 AM
douglasf13
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p.155 #2 · p.155 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


philip_pj wrote:
Shrugs..maybe you are right, Douglas...though it's hard for me to imagine what might be done with an RX100 sensor. Halo is where I want Sony to be!

Having read some stories of sensor and even rear element lens dust being a problem I am very cosy using the RX1 and would enjoy 1-2 more, assuming equal quality. Not a 50mm for me - wider or longer is OK. It's not your style maybe but an 85mm would be a sensation to use in many circumstances, for some of us.

And just a link to something RX1-istas may enjoy:
http://thegoldensieve.com/the-wedding-photographers-sony-rx1/


I was thinking more along the lines of a new "RX10" series, with an aps-c sensor or something, but who knows?

Don't get me wrong about the 85mm. That's probably the only other potential RX camera I would buy. I'm saying I hope they don't release one, so I'm not tempted to buy one!

Although I would love an RX with a 35 and 85, it got me thinking about backups a little bit. I think that is one area where the RX concept comes up a little short. I've read a couple anecdotes where users dropped their RX1 and the lens hit, which rendered the whole camera inoperable, so a backup is a good idea for this camera (any camera, really) when traveling. The way I'm set up now, I can bring the NEX-5 + Sigma 30 as a makeshift backup, and I can throw a small 50mm lens in there for the occasional tele, and I have a small, 2 camera setup that has a bit of redundancy.

If an "RX85" came about, and I only brought it and the current RX1, I'd be ok if the "RX85" went down, since I shoot 35mm most of the time, but I'd be in trouble if the RX1 went down, because I'd be stuck with 85mm the whole time. So, I'd inevitably need to bring the NEX-5 as backup, anyways. I think, at least for me, the rumored FF NEX would make more sense as my ideal second camera with an 85mm. At that focal length, it likely wouldn't be all that much larger than an RX version, and I could bring some kind of 35mm lens to use, should my RX1 go down. Or, I could just buy a second RX1 as backup and only use 35mm, which would probably work for me. Just a thought.



Aug 03, 2013 at 03:46 PM
Arka
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p.155 #3 · p.155 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


douglasf13 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of a new "RX10" series, with an aps-c sensor or something, but who knows?

Don't get me wrong about the 85mm. That's probably the only other potential RX camera I would buy. I'm saying I hope they don't release one, so I'm not tempted to buy one!

Although I would love an RX with a 35 and 85, it got me thinking about backups a little bit. I think that is one area where the RX concept comes up a little short. I've read a couple anecdotes where users dropped their RX1 and
...Show more

To all the optical engineers out there... how hard would it be to make a lens that was just 35 and 85, with no intermediate focal lengths? Would that be as heavy as a 35-85 zoom? I believe Leica makes something like this in wider FLs (16-18-21 Elmarit).



Aug 04, 2013 at 03:56 AM
philip_pj
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p.155 #4 · p.155 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Always feel good to have a backup of what you need. I tend to trust all good cameras, have never had a failure, so I would not plan for it. Just another camera would be OK in a pinch, even with an 85mm.

It's a dream concept and no one to my knowledge has ever done one, but a fixed 85mm lens camera would - if the technical advantages are strong in the RX1 'assembly and matching' processes - be very marketable if you had a really great lens. Camera weight could drift up and it could net at 550-600 grams with something like Leica's M 90/2 AA on it. Zeiss's own Sonnar 85/2 weighs 450 grams and has wonderful MTF, probably also a great lens, I don't know. The Leica looks like a Sonnar design-wise.

Two RX'n's would let you swap at will, between two very small and light identical cameras. A small bag with two chambers, two RX1 size cameras...common parts, batts, cards etc.

On weight, the Contax 85mm f2.8 is less than 300 grams, not much more than the lens assembly in the RX1 most likely. People would enjoy an f2 though. These lenses are fairly easy to make, often very simple in design, 5/5 or similar. Advanced IBIS, leaf shutter, better faster AF and matched EVF focus aids are other priorities.

Would that sell? To me it would..the reach with such a small camera would mean very candid high IQ portraits and detail selections as close ups, some landscapes.

Especially since the RX1 lens shows you a high quality bokeh preview at different shooting apertures. It's a 'cinematic' look the RX1 already has, so that in a longer FL = nice, and quite common for cinema. And no dust, never need to get into the camera at all. Would be a great travel camera, fuss free.




Aug 04, 2013 at 05:14 AM
philip_pj
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p.155 #5 · p.155 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Arka, like that 'WATE' lens? :
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2009/11/23/the-leica-wide-angle-tri-elmar-wate-lens-review/

Others can answer better than I can, but probably no, not easily or acceptably light and small. I once had a Fuji RF camera that had four positions: 55mm, 65mm, 75mm and 90mm so guess it can be done.



Aug 04, 2013 at 05:14 AM
douglasf13
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p.155 #6 · p.155 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I'm not sure that any of the IQ or size advantages of a fixed lens camera are going to translate to a tele. That's why I'm thinking one may as well just get an interchangeable, FF Nex for 85mm (assuming such a thing is in the horizon.)


Aug 04, 2013 at 01:35 PM
millsart
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p.155 #7 · p.155 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Well I may have lost my mind, but as much as I love the RX1, I'm putting mine up for sale, in favor of my Nikon V1. Insane I know but I've just fallen in love with shooting the V1.

The IQ isn't remotely as good as the RX, but the speed of the AF, the spot on exposure and the 1/16,000th shutter just make it such an enjoyable camera to shoot with, just as the RX1 is, but even more so for me because it is so fast to focus, instantly face detecting the subject.

Took both cameras to a 4 day Irish fest I'm the official photographer for and the RX1 got me some nice shots, no doubt it wouldn't, but the V1 just flat out amazed me, getting me about 1/3rd of the total keepers and I don't think a single OOF shot. It handled crazy stage lighting from the bands, bright sun, you name it. Handy built in EVF, and just a really solid overall build, plus a cheap enough price to not really have to worry about it. RX1 on the other hand, didn't exactly want to risk that clanking up against my D3s, something about being a precision $2800 camera makes one want to baby it a little....


I've still got the Sigma Merrill for when I want maximum resolution in an easy to hike with body, but otherwise am buying into the System 1, with the 32mm f1.2 on order and I already bought the 6.7-13mm VR which is just an excellent wide zoom. Really hoping to see a v3 with a 20meg RX100 sensor which would be pretty awesome.

I know this is akin to trading a Porsche for a Hyundai, or breaking up with a supermodel to date a 300lb girl you meet at a WV tollbooth, and I'll sorely miss the RX IQ, but just rather am enjoying the type of images I'm finding I can shoot with the V1 due to its speed.

With the RX I'd hang back, try to carefully compose a shot, make sure its in focus, adjust the exposure etc. Withe the V1, you can just jump right in there and 99 times out of 100, that little guy is going to manage to give you an in focus and well exposed shot before the subject even knows you took a photo. Its just awesome for run n' gun style street shooting. Subject flashes a smile, raise the camera, get the shot, before they even stopped smiling. RX on the other hand means raise the camera, as them to hold the pose for a moment and get the shot. It will be an exceptional shot, but, it really only works with willing subjects you know.

On top of that, the V1 can actually track moving subjects, which I've never had a mirrorless camera able to do. I was using it to actually shot action sports such as the highland games events right along side my D3s and it never missed a beat.

RX1 is what I consider the best camera on the market in terms of overall image quality in a nice form factor. V1 is what I consider the best camera on the market in terms of performance in a compact form factor.

V1 doesn't have the RX's IQ, not by a long shot, and the RX doesn't have the V1's AF, again, not by a long shot. Be nice if we could combine the two, but sadly don't think I'll hold my breath for that one, even though the V1 does show that it is possible to make a really great PDAF AF system in a mirrorless.






Aug 07, 2013 at 02:13 AM
glacierpete
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p.155 #8 · p.155 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


douglasf13 wrote:
I'm not convinced that another RX1 style is coming anytime soon. I'd imagine that they'd expand the smaller sensor RX cameras and leave the RX1 as a halo product. If they do bring another one, it'll be interesting to see if they bring another lens with mass appeal, like a 50mm, or, instead, maybe bring a complementary lens to the RX1, like a 21-25mm or 75-90mm. I hope they don't bring the later. I've convinced myself that I can just use a 50mm on my NEX when I occasionally need something longer, which is rare. I don't want to be
...Show more
I wish Sony just would put a square 24x24mm version of their new 32M pixel APS-C sensor in a Nex body. This way the existing lens line could be used.
With current chip wafer yields, I suspect that the square sensor would be way cheaper to produce than a 24x36mm version.

Square full frame and lots of room for cropping at an affordable price.

http://thenewcamera.com/category/sony-rumors/



Aug 07, 2013 at 06:02 AM
Jochenb
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p.155 #9 · p.155 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Millsart, I understand how you feel. I have the same with my OM-D. It's lightning fast and spot on. The RX1 just feels sluggish in comparison. The RX1 IQ is much better than that of the OM-D (I'm not impressed by the OM-D IQ), but I like shooting the Olympus more.
However: it all depends on the subject. When shooting nature/static stuff it's no issue at all and I hugely prefer the RX1 for it.



Aug 07, 2013 at 09:35 AM
Doo-bop
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p.155 #10 · p.155 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


do you folks use a V1K with the RX1 or is the screen good enough? I see it's quite expensive!


Aug 07, 2013 at 01:40 PM
 

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millsart
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p.155 #11 · p.155 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Doo-bop wrote:
do you folks use a V1K with the RX1 or is the screen good enough? I see it's quite expensive!


Screen is very nice, but I rather have grown fond of the EVF, its exceptionally good quality and a bit sharper/higher rez than the LCD so you can better judge the DoF and such. Also since it tilts, it allows shooting from more positions. I typically enjoy shooting with the EVF flipped up, in sort of a TLR style. Pricey yes, but also worth it.



Aug 07, 2013 at 03:07 PM
millsart
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p.155 #12 · p.155 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Jochenb wrote:
Millsart, I understand how you feel. I have the same with my OM-D. It's lightning fast and spot on. The RX1 just feels sluggish in comparison. The RX1 IQ is much better than that of the OM-D (I'm not impressed by the OM-D IQ), but I like shooting the Olympus more.
However: it all depends on the subject. When shooting nature/static stuff it's no issue at all and I hugely prefer the RX1 for it.


RX1 is pretty unmatched as far as IQ goes, especially in a small package. Its a pretty enjoyable camera to shoot as well, and is overall plenty responsive for most photography, just doesn't have the lightening fast response of the V1 so you not going to be able to quickly catch some candids of friends, street stuff etc. V1 feels sort of hardwired to my brain, where I feel like I can have something catch my eye, and I can instantly shoot it, in a manner of speaking. I can point the camera and press the shutter and it will be in focus. Just really different than the RX1 where you more have to have something catch your eye, then compose the shot, let the camera focus for a second (which really isn't long for stationary subjects) and then take the shot. Just very different approaches to photography from two quite different cameras.

Given I want to buy a few other N1 lenses, like the 32mm f1.2, I really can't afford/justify also keeping the RX1, plus I've got the DP2m which works pretty well (better than the RX1 at times) for when I do want to shoot a landscape or similar.

RX1 is an amazing landscape camera really, with a great lens, very good resolution, and great color and DR as well, but my Merrill can give me that as well, for about 1/3rd the price.

So I'm thinking the combo of the V1 and the DP2m should make a pretty good combo. 2 rather unpopular cameras with the mainstream that can do some very special things.



Aug 07, 2013 at 03:15 PM
douglasf13
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p.155 #13 · p.155 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Makes sense to me, millsart. I bought a V1 for my soon-to-be brother in law, and it is speedy. Cool little camera.

i think that's one of the advantages of a smaller sensor. Since the DOF is quite a bit more, they can tune the AF to be about speed, and the smaller lens elements can move a lot faster than the big hunks of glass in the RX1.



Aug 07, 2013 at 03:28 PM
sebboh
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p.155 #14 · p.155 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


douglasf13 wrote:
Makes sense to me, millsart. I bought a V1 for my soon-to-be brother in law, and it is speedy. Cool little camera.

i think that's one of the advantages of a smaller sensor. Since the DOF is quite a bit more, they can tune the AF to be about speed, and the smaller lens elements can move a lot faster than the big hunks of glass in the RX1.


yeah, i'm curious to see if the V1 can maintain it's fast focus ability and accuracy with the new f/1.2 lens.

millsart, how is the image quality on the V1 compared to a high end p&s and can you get any kind of subject isolation with the kit lens? i'm always curious whether i should recommend it to my friends when they ask what they should buy looking for an upgrade from p&s. when i ask them what they're looking for in an upgrade they always say they want to be able to shoot indoors without a flash and get just the subject in focus (like i do). i've been sending them towards 4/3 with collapsible zoom and 20/1.7, but i think having something with better AF would definitely be appreciated.




Aug 07, 2013 at 04:06 PM
millsart
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p.155 #15 · p.155 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


IQ is a little better than most P&S, but not quite as good as the RX100. Really, really, really would LOVE to see a V3 come out with the RX100 20meg sensor in it. Not really much subject isolation from the kit 10-30mm zoom. The 30-110mm can get moderate isolation at the longer focal lengths. Its actually a pretty nice zoom and you can pick them up refurbished for $99 at Adorama.

The 18.5mm, f1.8 ($179) on the other hand can get some decent isolation, and its a 50mm equiv so its a nice general focal length. It would be a pretty good purchase for anyone buying a v1 as it really opens up the camera a bit in terms of lower light shooting and more DoF control. Again, its no "cream machine" but its better than a P&S, and a little better than a kit zoom on m4/3.

I showed the camera to a bunch of people during this past weekends Irish Fest and everyone (photographers and non photographers) seemed to love it. One police officer actually pulled out his iPhone and ordered one on the spot lol.

Everyone just said that its so easy to take pictures with and was amazed at the face detect AF. Its kind of the ultimate point and shoot camera, by literal definition.

The metering is just amazing as well, handling stuff like rapidly changing stage lighting during some musical performances and never missing a beat. Easily 3 to 1 times better keeper rate than my D3s in fact. Usually when the strobes and other lights are going, the metering can get easily fooled, but the V1 just nailed it shot after shot. Plus, being the main stage was pretty high up, and they had big monitor speakers at the foot of it, no one could really get decent shots of the performers but I could just hold the V1 over my head with the 6.7-13mm mounted and get the performers head to toe and the camera would always lock onto their faces.

These are pretty good from a $249 camera held over my head, with a f3.5-5.6 zoom lens IMHO

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/g1bwlkj/]

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/0or2o7j/]

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/j3z8vsj/]

The dynamic range is surprisingly good for such a small sensor too, handling pretty harsh midday sun pretty well, which is something I usually never see in most small sensor cameras

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/5jb7w1j/]

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/0hgxrpj/]

And the metering does quite well even with some really bright parts of the frame, such as this white tent flap that was in full sun, while these guys where in the shade, of which my D3s totally was confused. V1 just locked onto their faces and I guess the metering must be linked to the AF points because it balanced this scene really well

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/mvznznj/]

Or another pretty tough exposure here

[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/mqew1qj/]

You can pull out a fair amount of highlight detail as well
[URL=http://imageshack.com/i/bb2cshj/]


Now certainly nothing really world beating here, RX1 has way more DR by a long shot, but for the size of sensor, and simplicity of shooting, its pretty impressive to me.

Equally fun and what your not going to find in the RX1, is the 30 and 60 fps settings, or the 400 fps movie footage. Was doing some baseball promo posters for the university yesterday and the ball and bat stuff we were getting with the v1 was a blast. I think any family with children would really love it for things like jumping into a pool, blowing out the candles on a cake, you name it.

If you've got Nikon F-mount glass as well you can get the FT-1 adapter and mount it to the V1, getting a 2.7x crop factor, and still having AF-S and AF-C tracking, plus VR (if the lens has it)

I put my 70-200 f2.8 VR onto it and it becomes a 540mm equiv, with f2.8 light gathering, excellent AF, and while only 200mm DoF, its still a lot better than any of those superzoom cam's, and is great for the zoo.

I think really anyone, serious photographer, or total amateur, would really enjoy the N1 system, provided your not looking for the utmost image quality or a lot of control over DoF (in which case I'd steer them toward the RX1) but the N1 system just plain works.

In closing, I'd got to share the site of the photographer, the very talented Joe Marquez, who has a great gallery of samples from the v1 that really show what it can do when used to its full potential. It is what swayed me to finally give one a try

http://www.thesmokingcamera.com/nikon_1_v1_photographs/h6F305D9C#h63816f6b




Aug 07, 2013 at 05:18 PM
douglasf13
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p.155 #16 · p.155 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


sebboh wrote:
yeah, i'm curious to see if the V1 can maintain it's fast focus ability and accuracy with the new f/1.2 lens.

millsart, how is the image quality on the V1 compared to a high end p&s and can you get any kind of subject isolation with the kit lens? i'm always curious whether i should recommend it to my friends when they ask what they should buy looking for an upgrade from p&s. when i ask them what they're looking for in an upgrade they always say they want to be able to shoot indoors without a flash and get just
...Show more

I'd imagine the 32/1.2 still focuses pretty fast. It's still only equivalent to shooting f3.3 on FF, so there's some depth of field to work with.

I went with the V1 for a friend (when it was super on-sale,) because I figured he'd appreciate the fast AF and size over the IQ differences, since he'd only been shooting P&S cameras up till that point.



Aug 07, 2013 at 05:53 PM
joekraft
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p.155 #17 · p.155 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I had seen this before in another context and meant to follow up: can I ask how the effective aperture/dof is calculated? Is it the same multiplier as the E-FOV, e.g. nominal aperture X crop factor? Thanks.


Aug 07, 2013 at 06:19 PM
Thyraz
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p.155 #18 · p.155 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


douglasf13 wrote:
I'd imagine the 32/1.2 still focuses pretty fast. It's still only equivalent to shooting f3.3 on FF, so there's some depth of field to work with.


Yeah, the 32mm 1.2 might be a good Portrait solution.
On longer lenses it's good to have a real fast focus when shooting in action.

So I guess a Nikon 1 with the 32mm 1.2 might be a good complement to an RX1 if one needs something like that.
I guess I would also need less resolution for casual "portraits" compared to landscape..



Aug 07, 2013 at 06:24 PM
douglasf13
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p.155 #19 · p.155 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


joekraft wrote:
I had seen this before in another context and meant to follow up: can I ask how the effective aperture/dof is calculated? Is it the same multiplier as the E-FOV, e.g. nominal aperture X crop factor? Thanks.


The easiest way is to simply scroll down to the bottom of this page and enter in the sensor size and lens info:
link



Aug 07, 2013 at 07:10 PM
joekraft
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p.155 #20 · p.155 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Thanks - I had not used one of those for quite a while since I went full-frame, so they fell off my radar.


Aug 07, 2013 at 07:57 PM
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