How noisy is your 7D?

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uz2work
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p.21 #1 · How noisy is your 7D?

Ian.Dobinson wrote:
aznature wrote:
I own the 7D for few years which replaced the 1D Mark IIn.
noise is not the issue. Acutance is.
Great resolution and sharpness but poor Edge definition in 100%

I replaced it with the 1d mark III and I am very happy with this move
I am tired of great images on the camera LCD and poor on the big screen

yeah 'cos thats always the answer. dont like 18mp on a smaller sensor @ 100% then replace it with less pixels over a larger area and still view @100%

why bother? 100% is just for checking . It bares no relation to the WHOLE image .

the mk3 is a fine camera , but if you veiwed it at the equal resolution as the 7D (way over 100%) then i bet you wouldnt like that either .

I never bothered with my Mk2n , as I found images in Higher ISO to be worse (when viewng the whole image on screen) and it left me no cropping room when I was even more reach limited than with the 7D.
The only thing it did better was BIF. I found the AF on the 'n handled that better. anything else and the 7D did just as well or better

I'm afraid that there are some who will never understand that comparing images from cameras with different pixel densities at the pixel level is completely meaningless to how actual images will look. For those who insist on comparing images from cameras with different pixel levels at the pixel level, they should go back to using the 3 MP 30D or 4 MP 1D bodies that many were using a decade ago. The pixels from those cameras will be beautiful, and the images will also be impressive on the screen or in small prints. Unfortunately, that beauty will not be sustained if printing large is desired or if more than minimal cropping is necessary. While I have no interest in going back to the pixel densities of a decade ago or even of 4 or 5 years ago, I'm guessing that there are those whose need to judge images at the pixel level would lead them to be happier by turning the clock back.

Les

Sep 14, 2012 at 05:39 PM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.21 #2 · How noisy is your 7D?

Although I use it (sometimes) I think the bl@@dy 100% button should be banned

In LR I cull my images at 50% and only use th 100% if I'm going to need a substantial crop . And even then unless it looks total crap it the end result will normally look good.

Sep 14, 2012 at 06:00 PM

aznature
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p.21 #3 · How noisy is your 7D?

Does any of you post images at Stock Photos online sites??
Do you post 7D images? are they accepted? What is the rejection/acceptance rate Vs. 1D Images?
If you purchased the 7D to please yourself i am happy for you but
do you please the clients? in this case may be the noise is not an issue at all.
Canon defines Semi-Pro differently compared to Nikon.
Nikon does not downgrade IQ but Canon Does.

I love the L Lenses that is why i got into this 7D trap.

Sep 14, 2012 at 10:52 PM

TeamSpeed
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p.21 #4 · How noisy is your 7D?

Okay, I have been a bit silent on this "subject has to fill your frame" topic since I traded my 7D to my brother who wants to get back into photography after his divorce and his 40D is broke. I just picked up another 7D and have only had about 2 hours with it.

I don't have any long primes or anything nice like that, but this is what I do have and the conditions. This is a very extreme situation IMO, I have another more reasonable example to show a bit later. You would never expect to really salvage anything if you were shooting wildlife like this, I wouldn't think, but then again this combination is only $2400 in value, as opposed to what a long prime would cost.

Conditions (not very good, I have everything going against me, a Sigma lens, ISO 1600 on the 7D, etc)
- Used 7D, received a couple of days ago
- Sigma 50-500 OS
- Morning shot
- Subject material is quite far off
- ISO 1600

My neighbor across the pond, and my target is his flower pot...
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Zoom to 500mm, OS turned on, ISO 1600
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Slight NR, sharpen and this is what I get at 100%. Like I said this is pretty extreme, I would think that subject material this far off wouldn't really leave you with much of anything to keep, except web images. Not great, but for the money and at the settings I used, I would think the results would be worse.
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Sep 15, 2012 at 01:23 PM

TeamSpeed
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p.21 #5 · How noisy is your 7D?

This would probably be a better situation. Same basic settings, but something closer, but also less light.

Here is the scene at 500mm, and then I cropped out 1/4th of the image, leaving me with just about enough resolution for a 5x7. After that, a 100% crop of that 5x7 image.

I can definitely see where the more diehard photographers are going to be more critical of their results, and these just won't cut it for them. For the more casual shooter though, wouldn't these results be alright? I wish I had better glass, the results might be different.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Sep 15, 2012 at 01:43 PM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #6 · How noisy is your 7D?

aznature wrote:
Does any of you post images at Stock Photos online sites??
Do you post 7D images? are they accepted? What is the rejection/acceptance rate Vs. 1D Images?
If you purchased the 7D to please yourself i am happy for you but
do you please the clients? in this case may be the noise is not an issue at all.
Canon defines Semi-Pro differently compared to Nikon.
Nikon does not downgrade IQ but Canon Does.

I love the L Lenses that is why i got into this 7D trap.

I have some of my bird images in a stock photo site whose requirement includes a minimum native size of 8 MP as framed/cropped. It was easier for me to get pleasing compositions after cropping and still meet this minimum native size with the 7D's 18 MP and 1.6 CF. Many of my favorite 1D2 shots didn't make the grade because even slight cropping would yield less than 8 MP images.

Sep 15, 2012 at 10:47 PM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #7 · How noisy is your 7D?

TeamSpeed wrote:
Okay, I have been a bit silent on this "subject has to fill your frame" topic since I traded my 7D to my brother who wants to get back into photography after his divorce and his 40D is broke. I just picked up another 7D and have only had about 2 hours with it.

I don't have any long primes or anything nice like that, but this is what I do have and the conditions. This is a very extreme situation IMO, I have another more reasonable example to show a bit later. You would never expect to really salvage anything if you were shooting wildlife like this, I wouldn't think, but then again this combination is only $2400 in value, as opposed to what a long prime would cost.

Conditions (not very good, I have everything going against me, a Sigma lens, ISO 1600 on the 7D, etc)
- Used 7D, received a couple of days ago
- Sigma 50-500 OS
- Morning shot
- Subject material is quite far off
- ISO 1600

Looks like the Bigmos has decent IQ, TS!

For filming birds, the Bigmos + 2x TC would be an ideal one lens solution - 50 to 1000 mm on a 7D will allow environmental footage as well as close ups.

Sep 15, 2012 at 10:56 PM

uz2work
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p.21 #8 · How noisy is your 7D?

aznature wrote:
Does any of you post images at Stock Photos online sites??
Do you post 7D images? are they accepted? What is the rejection/acceptance rate Vs. 1D Images?
If you purchased the 7D to please yourself i am happy for you but
do you please the clients? in this case may be the noise is not an issue at all.
Canon defines Semi-Pro differently compared to Nikon.
Nikon does not downgrade IQ but Canon Does.

I love the L Lenses that is why i got into this 7D trap.

I've sold numerous prints with images from the 7D, had 7D images published, and won multiple awards in juried competitions with 7D images, and no one has ever complained about noise, detail, sharpness, or any other aspect of image quality.

I would be interested in seeing some of the images that were rejected because of "7D image quality".

Les

Sep 15, 2012 at 11:17 PM

jpeter
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p.21 #9 · How noisy is your 7D?

aznature wrote:
Does any of you post images at Stock Photos online sites??
Do you post 7D images? are they accepted? What is the rejection/acceptance rate Vs. 1D Images?
If you purchased the 7D to please yourself i am happy for you but
do you please the clients? in this case may be the noise is not an issue at all.
Canon defines Semi-Pro differently compared to Nikon.
Nikon does not downgrade IQ but Canon Does.

I love the L Lenses that is why i got into this 7D trap.

I have only run into issues with landscape shots with the 7d, rejected because of noise. I altered my processing to use NR on 200 ISO shots and got them accepted. In general for me, it's a tool to use when the reach is needed. Use 5d2 for landscapes.

I don't see any downgrade in quality because it's "semi-pro" It is a crop sensor with a lot of pixels. Of course the noise is higher than a 5d2 or other full frame camera. Lets remind ourselves this camera is a couple years old in terms of technology.

jp

Sep 16, 2012 at 12:51 AM

Rusty1
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p.21 #10 · How noisy is your 7D?

Liquidstone wrote:
I have some of my bird images in a stock photo site whose requirement includes a minimum native size of 8 MP as framed/cropped. It was easier for me to get pleasing compositions after cropping and still meet this minimum native size with the 7D's 18 MP and 1.6 CF. Many of my favorite 1D2 shots didn't make the grade because even slight cropping would yield less than 8 MP images.

Same required by magazine I shoot for and the ability to crop is an enormous advantage for action shots. Speaking for myself the 7D advantages out way its short comings for my use.

Sep 16, 2012 at 01:14 AM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #11 · How noisy is your 7D?

I was just testing my 7D this morning after upgrading to FW 2.0.3. I had no issues with FW 2.0.0, and it looks like my 7D works beautifully with 2.0.3.

Looking at Teamspeed's high ISO work, I was tempted to try ISO 12.8K. I did practice ETTR to help control the noise.

Eurasian Tree Sparrow (Passer montanus)
Shooting info - 7D + 500 f4 IS + Canon 1.4x TC, 700 mm, f/5.6, 1/500 sec, ISO 12800, manual exposure in available light (ETTR), 475B tripod/516 fluid head, near full frame resized to 1200x800.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

It doesn't look as pretty as low ISO shots when pixel-peeping, but I was surprised the detail/noise ratio is not as bad as I'd expected. Now, if I need this ultra-sensitivity in extreme low light, I wouldn't hesitate to use it at all. Here's a link to the uncropped/unresized FF.

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/146065536/original

Sep 16, 2012 at 01:23 AM

TeamSpeed
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p.21 #12 · How noisy is your 7D?

Looks good, I had come to the conclusion a year or two ago that I could just about muster 8x10 of that ISO level, but most of the time right around a 5x7.

Sep 16, 2012 at 01:40 AM

uz2work
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p.21 #13 · How noisy is your 7D?

Liquidstone wrote:
I was just testing my 7D this morning after upgrading to FW 2.0.3. I had no issues with FW 2.0.0, and it looks like my 7D works beautifully with 2.0.3.

Looking at Teamspeed's high ISO work, I was tempted to try ISO 12.8K. I did practice ETTR to help control the noise.

Eurasian Tree Sparrow (Passer montanus)
Shooting info - 7D + 500 f4 IS + Canon 1.4x TC, 700 mm, f/5.6, 1/500 sec, ISO 12800, manual exposure in available light (ETTR), 475B tripod/516 fluid head, near full frame resized to 1200x800.

It doesn't look as pretty as low ISO shots when pixel-peeping, but I was surprised the detail/noise ratio is not as bad as I'd expected. Now, if I need this ultra-sensitivity in extreme low light, I wouldn't hesitate to use it at all. Here's a link to the uncropped/unresized FF.

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/146065536/original

Looks very impressive to me, Romy. As I was looking at the original, I couldn't help but think about how we have become greedy in our expectations. Yes, the original shows visible noise, and the detail is at a lower level than you would have gotten at a lower ISO, but those results would have thrilled anyone shooting a 1D or 10D 9 or 10 years ago at ISO 800.

Les

Sep 16, 2012 at 01:46 AM

Alek Komarnits
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p.21 #14 · How noisy is your 7D?

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/146065536/original

First, great shot ... but I'd expect no less from you Romy! ;-)

I'm assuming you shot RAW ... would be curious to hear more details on your post-processing. I.e. assuming LightRoom, what exactly where your settings ... and then what type of work in Photoshop?

BTW, just noticed that your settings: ISO 12,800, F/5.6, and 1/500s are almost exactly "equivalent" light from the previous picture I posted (repeated below here) that was ISO 800, F/2.8, 1/100s.

I.e. I wonder how your image would have looked if the light had been two stops lower - i.e. you had to shoot at 1/125s ... and yes, we'll assume the bird doesn't move for 'ya!

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Sep 16, 2012 at 01:46 AM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #15 · How noisy is your 7D?

uz2work wrote:

Looks very impressive to me, Romy. As I was looking at the original, I couldn't help but think about how we have become greedy in our expectations. Yes, the original shows visible noise, and the detail is at a lower level than you would have gotten at a lower ISO, but those results would have thrilled anyone shooting a 1D or 10D 9 or 10 years ago at ISO 800.

Les

Thanks, Les.

To get a relative sense of IQ versus my old DSLRs, I played around with the ISO 12.8K capture some more:

1. Resize to 3504x2336 pixels (8.2 MP) to simulate a 20D file.

2. Add a dash of global sharpening after resizing.

Here's a 100% crop after steps 1 & 2.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

I'd have been delighted if I could get this detail/noise ratio at 100% crop with my old workhorses (20D or 1D2) at ISO 1600.

Sep 16, 2012 at 02:23 AM

n0b0
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p.21 #16 · How noisy is your 7D?

What algorithm did you use to size that down Liquidstone? Bicubic Sharper?

Sep 16, 2012 at 02:48 AM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #17 · How noisy is your 7D?

Alek Komarnits wrote:

First, great shot ... but I'd expect no less from you Romy! ;-)

I'm assuming you shot RAW ... would be curious to hear more details on your post-processing. I.e. assuming LightRoom, what exactly where your settings ... and then what type of work in Photoshop

Thanks, Alek!

Yes, this was in RAW. To maximize the use of captured information, I converted the RAW twice.

The first conversion was to minimize noise - 0 sharpening, 50 Luminance NR and 50 L Detail.

The second conversion was to improve retained detail - 20 sharpening, 40 L NR and 100 L detail.

All other sharpening/NR parameters are ACR defaults.

In PS, I pasted the second file on top of the first file. I used an eraser brush of varying opacity/edge feathering to expose the low noise BG and dark areas of the bottom layer, while leaving the detail of the top layer intact. Then I flattened the layers and got to work on the contrast, levels, etc.

This involved a bit of effort. However, if I were processing for prints (say up to 12" x 18" for this file), I'd have converted only once - the noisier, more detailed second conversion. The noise grains wouldn't be visible in print anyway.

Alek Komarnits wrote:
BTW, just noticed that your settings: ISO 12,800, F/5.6, and 1/500s are almost exactly "equivalent" light from the previous picture I posted (repeated below here) that was ISO 800, F/2.8, 1/100s

I used a relatively fast Tv to freeze the head of the bird which was moving a lot. At a static bird, at 2 stops lower light, I believe I'll get the same IQ at 1/125 sec.

Sep 16, 2012 at 03:22 AM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #18 · How noisy is your 7D?

n0b0 wrote:
What algorithm did you use to size that down Liquidstone? Bicubic Sharper?

I used Bicubic Smoother in a single step resizing to minimize noise.

Sep 16, 2012 at 03:26 AM

palmor
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p.21 #19 · How noisy is your 7D?

TeamSpeed wrote:
Looks good, I had come to the conclusion a year or two ago that I could just about muster 8x10 of that ISO level, but most of the time right around a 5x7.

Exactly the same conclusion I came to. 5x7 is the norm while I could get some good 8x10's the 5x7 is what I would default to for indoor agility sales.

That is the biggest difference between the 7d and 5d III is that I can shoot at that ISO level and my default can now be 8x10's.

John

Sep 17, 2012 at 01:00 AM

Liquidstone
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p.21 #20 · How noisy is your 7D?

Updating the thread with an ISO 800 sample.

Brown Shrike (Lanius cristatus)

Shooting Info - 7D + 500 f4 IS + Canon 1.4x TC II, 700 mm, f/6.3, ISO 800, 1/320 sec, hand held, manual exposure in available light, uncropped full frame resized to 1500x1000.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Uncropped 18 MP full frame (PS quality 10 jpeg)

Oct 03, 2012 at 01:19 AM

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