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Archive 2012 · 7D or 1D4? (used)
  
 
eyal.ma
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p.1 #1 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Hello.

I plan to get a second body to keep my 5D3 some company.

What I lack is a bit of reach out of my gear (100L in macro and 70-200/2.8 and 300/4 in sport). Also a fast FPS body isn't so bad as well.

The price of a used 1D4 is a bit over twice the price of a used 7D, so I wonder if its worth the difference that much.

I like the dual slot, the better AF and the better ISO, but in macro I'm shooting manual, and in sport I'm either using the 5D3 45 points tracking on the objects, or middle spot on slower moving targets (or another depends where I want my focus to be). And of course using AI servo. So the 7D should 19 points should allow me decent flexability.

The main reason I see choosing the 7D is the 1.6 crop and 18mp, which helps alot when I don't have enough reach, where the 1D4 is 1.3 and 16mp. So very small subjects or in sports when the target is just too far, its easier to crop with the 7D.

I fooled around with a friend's 7D. I'm not 100% sure about it. Its controls are a decently similar to the 5D3 so its easier learning curve. But the 7D just "doesn't do it" for me. For the 15 minutes I had to fool around with the 1D4, it really loved the feel of the body, and the extremely fast AF it gave.

I'm just on the fence, and could use some advice.
My wallet is not unlimited I'm afraid, and I still need to get a 85/1.2 and replace my 24-105 before I'm going to japan for a few weeks, and I was considering getting a second body with me. So getting all that will be a bit heavy on the wallet. So I really need to be sure I will do the right decision getting a 1D4.

Cheers.



Aug 19, 2012 at 03:58 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #2 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Well, if you can swing it financially, it sounds like you will only be happy if you get the 1D4. I currently have a 7D, 5D2 and 5D3. I have just purchased a used 1D4 and plan to sell off the 7D. I don't find the extra pixels on the 7D to give that much better "reach" because the 5D pixels are just better. Others will disagree but most tests show a cropped 5D2/3 image to be very similar to a 7D image. I went for the 1D4 because of the 1 series build and the f/8 AF.

One thing to note though, the used price of a 1D4 is sitting around the $3500 mark right now and a 7D is 900-1000 so its more like just over 3x the price going off recent sales on the FM Buy and Sell. If you've found a 1D4 down in the $2500 range then I'd scoop it up right away.



Aug 19, 2012 at 04:11 PM
Lars Johnsson
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p.1 #3 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Yes the 1D4 is worth the difference in price.


Aug 19, 2012 at 04:12 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #4 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


arbitrage wrote:
I don't find the extra pixels on the 7D to give that much better "reach" because the 5D pixels are just better. Others will disagree but most tests show a cropped 5D2/3 image to be very similar to a 7D image.
.


I'm not sure what tests you are looking at, but every controlled test that I've seen gives a clear advantage to the 7D with regard to resolving detail in focal length-limited situations. I have no doubt that the 5D Mark III is an outstanding camera and that it can do a better job than the 7D in many situations, but focal length-limited situations are not included in the list of those situations,

As an owner of both a 1D Mark IV and a 7D, my assessment would be that the 1D Mark IV is, without question, a better camera than the 7D, and, in non-focal length-limited situations, the 1D Mark IV is my camera of choice, but, just like with the 7D-5D Mark III comparison, in focal length limited-situations, the 7D is the clear winner.

If the OP is interested in a second body that will be used in focal length-limited situations, the 1D Mark IV will give only marginal advantage over the 5D Mark III that the OP already has, but the 7D will give significant advantage in those situations. Much of the shooting I do is in focal length-limited situations. I know that, when I'm not focal length limited, I will choose to use the 1D Mark IV, but, when I am focal length-limited, I will choose the 7D every time and it gets me quality shots that I would not be able to get with the 1D Mark IV.

I find it amusing that those with "internet wisdom" will virtually always move to the knee jerk reaction of telling others asking for advice that they should spend (more) money on the 1-series body. Again, the 1D Mark IV is an outstanding camera, but, for use in focal length-limited situations, one can make a strong argument that the 7D will not only give some distinct advantages, but it will keep a couple of thousand dollars in one's pocket.

Even though the thread that I am linking to concerns itself with 7D and 1D Mark III comparisons, the same general arguments for the 7D in focal length-limited situations apply to the 1D Mark IV comparison, too. If you read my posts and those of others in that thread, you will see those arguments.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1139318

If the OP were not concerned with a second body that would do better in focal length-limited situations, my thoughts on the best choice of that second body might well be different.


Les


Edited on Aug 19, 2012 at 04:55 PM · View previous versions



Aug 19, 2012 at 04:39 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #5 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


arbitrage wrote:
I don't find the extra pixels on the 7D to give that much better "reach" because the 5D pixels are just better. Others will disagree but most tests show a cropped 5D2/3 image to be very similar to a 7D image.
.



Could you please provide links to these "most tests"?



Aug 19, 2012 at 04:47 PM
RogerC11
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p.1 #6 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Beware....Imagemaster might end up posting some superb examples taken with the 7d shortly to sway your decision


Aug 19, 2012 at 04:58 PM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #7 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Looking at Les's website (worth a look!), I can understand his approach to focal length-limited situations, and the fact those situations exist for him. Regarding the OP, it's not clear what you want or need the extra reach for--sport and small subjects are mentioned--but I have to wonder why you're aiming to solve the problem with a camera body rather than a lens. If you sell your 300 f/4 and put those funds plus the camera money toward a 300 f/2.8 + 1.4 extender, you give yourself the potential to reach 420mm at f/4, plus the versatility of the f/2.8 lens. You may have very good reasons for wanting a new and different body, but if reach is a priority, there is another way of thinking about it.


Aug 19, 2012 at 05:13 PM
eyal.ma
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p.1 #8 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Russ Isabella wrote:
Looking at Les's website (worth a look!), I can understand his approach to focal length-limited situations, and the fact those situations exist for him. Regarding the OP, it's not clear what you want or need the extra reach for--sport and small subjects are mentioned--but I have to wonder why you're aiming to solve the problem with a camera body rather than a lens. If you sell your 300 f/4 and put those funds plus the camera money toward a 300 f/2.8 + 1.4 extender, you give yourself the potential to reach 420mm at f/4, plus the versatility of the
...Show more

The problem I'm trying to solve is actually 2:

1. Higher FPS and better reach: 8 or 10, give me a few extra shots to get the shot I want over the 6 fps of the 5D3.
This will also allow me 1 burst body and 1 with a shorter lens, as in 5D3+70-200 and ?D+300 or ?D+300+1.4x.
I can use a 1.4x+300/4 to get a 420 f/5.6. I sometimes do. But its not always enough (from 1 side to the other in a football match, motorcycle track not allowing to stay close enough to the track on certain curners).

2. Better reach in macro.
Currently with the 5D3+1.4x+tube+100L I get decent magnification, but sometimes I have to go really really close to my subject, and they don't like a lens in the face, so they get away.
I tried a friend's sigma 150mm, and with the same setup I don't have to be as close to get the same frame, subjects don't get away, and I don't have to resort to very large crops. I sometimes need to crop to almost 30% of the frame on very small subjects. Or standing too close to the subject, I don't have room to get the right composition I want.
I know I can fix that with a better lens (180 is on my shopping in the last two months), but that won't help problem number 1.


In the end, the 7D will give me better options in problem number 2, while the 1D4 will be better at number 1 (also because of the f/8 AF).
The 300/2.8 without IS isn't being sold around where I live, and the IS version cost twice as much as used 1D4. I can't afford it even if I wanted to. Even the 300/4 I bought second hand.

I can get the 7D used at about 1200$, and a 1D4 used at about 2500-2600$ give or take. Those are with decent low shutter count.



Aug 19, 2012 at 06:33 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #9 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Well for reach or what is generally called 'pixels per duck' you need to take each mp size upto a common sensor size . Which in this case will be FF as you have the 5D3

So roughly:
5D2=22mp
1D4= 26mp
7D=46mp

So if your that reach limited the 7Doffers you some advantage.
I shot a motogp race a couple of months ago and I had with me my 7D 100-400 and I also took my mk2n. I soon realised I would be cropping everything down as I couldnt get any closer than I was . After cropping my 18mp files were down to about 10mp. I didn't even bother with the mk2 as I would have so few pixels left. But even with a higher mp body like the 5D3 I would have been cropping way to much away.

Now if the mk4 gives you enough 'reach'. Then it will yield better results (It should for it's price) . If not then I would take the 7D



Aug 19, 2012 at 06:54 PM
Kathy White
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p.1 #10 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


eyal.ma wrote:
I can get the 7D used at about 1200$, and a 1D4 used at about 2500-2600$ give or take. Those are with decent low shutter count.



I'd take a 1DIV for 2500 or 2600.



Aug 19, 2012 at 06:56 PM
 

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uz2work
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p.1 #11 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


eyal.ma wrote:
In the end, the 7D will give me better options in problem number 2, while the 1D4 will be better at number 1 (also because of the f/8 AF).



In comparing the 1D Mark IV and 7D, the f8 focus capability of the 1D Mark IV is largely irrelevant because, for example, using a 7D with your 300/4 and a 1.4x will put virtually the same number of pixels on the subject as using a 1D Mark IV with your 300/4 and a 2x, and the 7D plus 300/4 and 1.4x combination will have the advantage of shutter speeds that are twice as fast, not having the larger image degradation that results from using a 2x, and considerably focus speeds.


eyal.ma wrote:
I can get the 7D used at about 1200$, and a 1D4 used at about 2500-2600$ give or take. Those are with decent low shutter count.


While I've seen used 7D bodies selling in the range that you state, I'm not sure that I've seen any 1D Mark IV bodies even close to $2500-2600.

Les



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:02 PM
Netgarden
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p.1 #12 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Comparing the 1Dmk4,3, to the7D, as i have used all 3 extensively:
My biggest gripe with the7 D was the ISO quality at 400 was not good, requiring alot more processing on the wildlife and low light situations. Macro was good with flash and 100 ISO.
It's focus option of smallest single point was great for threading needle shots. But i found the cropped resolution for bifs not as good as my 1D cameras, so I sold it and went to the 1Dmk4 .

The 1d series cams are definitely in a class of their own, and personally I have no issues with the 1.3sensor. Comparing them to a 7d is like comparing the 5dmkiii to the T4i. don't get me wrong, the7d is one of the best in it,s class, and in the future I might try an upgrade of it again, but so far one can not compare performance and quality to the 1D's.

Edited on Aug 19, 2012 at 07:07 PM · View previous versions



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:05 PM
MDHO
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p.1 #13 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


They are both very good cameras in their own right but I pick the Canon EOS-7D as the best value in DSLR today. Take a look at my Blog post analyzing each camera's strength and weakness and decide for yourself.

http://blog.michaeldanielho.com/2012/05/canon-1d-mk-iv-vs-canon-7d.html



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:05 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #14 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


If you can get a 1D4 for that price with low shutter count then I'd buy it and just resell it anyways. If you really need the reach then I'd try out a 7D but I wouldn't pay $1200 for it. Check the Buy and Sell on this forum. $1000 or less easily for a 7D. Where are you located?

In response to my comment above about "most tests" showing negligible difference, I may have spoken too soon. I did a quick search on these forums and some of the more recent tests do show some advantage to the 7D when reach limited. I have seen others that claimed it to be almost a draw between the two but I will have to search further back to find them as I haven't visited this discussion in a while. My personal experience with the 7D and 5D2/3 is that I always reach for my 5D3 if I have a choice. I'm not sure why, maybe its just the better AF for moving subjects that are small in the frame (usually birds) or the lack of low ISO noise that the 7D shows too frequently.

Personally, I like to try and really fill the frame as much as possible and in your case if the reach needed can be made up by the 7D's crop factor then maybe it would be the best choice. However, I would also seriously look into a longer lens first over going for the 7D. Perhaps the 400 f/5.6 or the 100-400 would make up some of the difference. On the macro end however, the 7D does do a better job with the 100L for what you describe. This is the one situation where I still make use of my 7D and my 100L as it solves the problems you mention.




Aug 19, 2012 at 07:08 PM
ragebot
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p.1 #15 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Just some random thoughts about how your shooting style should be considered in selecting a body.

I have both a 1d4 and a 7d and like them both. I have used my Sigma 150 and my 100-400 with tubes for macro using the 7d and find both work. If I am doing more action oriented stuff the 1d4 is far and away better.

But my shooting style for macro often includes some flavor of flash, MF, and ME so nice stuff like burst rate is moot. For things like BIF the great AF and burst rate of the 1d4 over shadow the extra effective focal length of the 7d.

You may want to assess your shooting style. If you are a MF macro guy the extra working distance the 7d gives makes it a clear winner, at least for me. If you are shooting BIF or other fast moving critters the AF and burst rate of the 1d4 may mean more than the greater effective focal length of the 7d. Do you do more macro shooting or more wild life shooting. You are the only one who can answer these questions, but once you do the choice will be easier to make.



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:09 PM
eyal.ma
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p.1 #16 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


ragebot wrote:
Just some random thoughts about how your shooting style should be considered in selecting a body.

I have both a 1d4 and a 7d and like them both. I have used my Sigma 150 and my 100-400 with tubes for macro using the 7d and find both work. If I am doing more action oriented stuff the 1d4 is far and away better.

But my shooting style for macro often includes some flavor of flash, MF, and ME so nice stuff like burst rate is moot. For things like BIF the great AF and burst rate of the 1d4 over shadow the
...Show more

Regarding my shooting style in macro, I rarely use a flash. I usually use nature light or increase the ISO a bit (up to 1600 on the 5D3, because over that and crop, it gets noisy or soft when I need to correct the noise).
About 50-50 I'm using MF on a tripod very early, and later go for hand held trying to chase a critter or two, in which case I mostly use the AF (especially on bees, lizards and so on), and burst to hopefully get a good focus shot (or maybe stack them later).

In sport, it depends on where I stand. I'm using expand AF sometimes when I can keep the subject in the center, or 61 AF points when I'm having fast moving subjects. The 70-200 and 300 both focus quick enough to keep the subject in focus (I have to say I really love the 61 points AF in general).

Currently I don't really shoot wildlife outside macro or birds. I tried a few months ago, and I failed miserably, so I put it aside for the time being.



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:28 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #17 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


Netgarden wrote:
Comparing the 1Dmk4,3, to the7D, as i have used all 3 extensively:
My biggest gripe with the7 D was the ISO quality at 400 was not good, requiring alot more processing on the wildlife and low light situations. Macro was good with flash and 100 ISO.
It's focus option of smallest single point was great for threading needle shots. But i found the cropped resolution for bifs not as good as my 1D cameras, so I sold it and went to the 1Dmk4 .



My experience is that the issue of noise with the 7D is largely one that results results in the minds of some from examining noise in a manner that has little to do with the final overall image quality. If, for example, I compare the noise in a 1D Mark IV image to the noise in a 7D image by looking at both at 100% on the screen, yes, the 7D noise will look (much worse), but each of the 1D Mark IV pixels in an image that was cropped to the same field of view as an image taken with the 7D needs to be enlarged to a much greater degree than the 7D pixels to create the entire image, and, when the pixels are enlarged, so is noise. Thus, the per pixel noise from the 1D Mark IV image gets enlarged much more than does the per pixel 7D noise, and much/most of the per pixel noise advantage of the 1D Mark IV is lost.

Similarly, you have to crop a 1D Mark IV image about 11 MP if you crop it to the same field of view that you would have with the 7D with the same lens. If you down-sample the 7D image to 11 MP (or up-sample the cropped 1D Mark IV image up to 18 MP), the noise looks much the same.

I process my 7D images in exactly the same way I do my 1D Mark IV images. I generally do my (wildlife shooting) at ISO 400 because going lower would mean having to sacrifice the shutter speed that I need to get the most out of the camera, but, if I have to do so, I don't hesitate to kick the ISO up to 800 or 1600. Again, if I do meaningless examination at 100%, the noise looks scary on the screen, but, at the image level, I find it to be quite manageable without having to resort to extraordinary processing and post processing techniques.

Les



Aug 19, 2012 at 07:58 PM
RobertLynn
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p.1 #18 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


eyal.ma wrote:
I can get the 7D used at about 1200$, and a 1D4 used at about 2500-2600$ give or take. Those are with decent low shutter count.

I call bull.

2500 for a low shutter count 1DIV?

Where? I'll buy them right now, all of them.




Aug 19, 2012 at 10:53 PM
Paul Tessier
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p.1 #19 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


RobertLynn wrote:
I call bull.

2500 for a low shutter count 1DIV?

Where? I'll buy them right now, all of them.



Yea! 3500 3600 is more like it these days



Aug 19, 2012 at 11:09 PM
3catsinky
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p.1 #20 · 7D or 1D4? (used)


if you can score a 1D4 for that price, you need to be paypaling, not posting here. 1 series all the way!



Aug 19, 2012 at 11:24 PM
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