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Archive 2012 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and tha...
  
 
Chris Tylko
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Couple of observations here:
a) Retaining a copyright on an image of a person (or other copyrighted piece of work) does not give you an automatic right to publish that image.

b) ...that's where model releases come in.

Now here's the interesting question: in the case of a model release for a minor you usually get one adult/guardian to sign. So there must be cases where shared-custody-sparring-spouses object.

Any fashion photographers out there run into this?




Aug 17, 2012 at 03:05 AM
tylerdrumm
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Chris Tylko wrote:
Couple of observations here:
a) Retaining a copyright on an image of a person (or other copyrighted piece of work) does not give you an automatic right to publish that image.

b) ...that's where model releases come in.


Check. I do have a model release that's been signed by the father. Good points. Thanks.



Aug 17, 2012 at 03:17 AM
Morganbeaudry
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


wickerprints wrote:
With extreme trepidation I'm going to put my $0.02 in here.

I don't understand the calls to drop these clients completely. Part of the risk of doing business is the potential for complications, and if you're finding yourself running away at the slightest possibility of a problem, then you're not going to make much money, now are you? There's a reason why one incorporates and sets up the proper legal and financial structures. Every client you work for presents some exposure to liability, sometimes unforeseen.

That said, you are supposed to be a professional. Any time you even give the appearance of
...Show more

What a sage and well thought out reply. Truth.



Aug 17, 2012 at 02:22 PM
Morganbeaudry
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Geo31 wrote:
I haven't read all the posts. Don't need to (although I may be redundant).

Seriously? Do you really seek out this much drama?

I don't need to be a lawyer to answer this. It's her kid. Her desires trump yours. Period.

That said, do the dad a solid and just do the shoot (for the appropriate price). You don't need to splash the kid's photo on the web. Seriously....


With all due respect, the child as has two parents. Either parent can make decisions for their child, even legal ones, independently. While my own father's contribution to my life doesn't amount to bucket of warm spit, fathers are just as capable of being exemplary parents as mothers are. Mother haven't cornered the market on parental competence and indeed I know many that I wouldn't trust with houseplant based on how I've seen them care for their children.

And let's all keep in mind that the father in this case isn't authorizing a post-trauma organ donation here, just a personal use portrait that a professional photographer may feature in his portfolio. Perspective, people.



Aug 17, 2012 at 02:33 PM
sboerup
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


I wouldn't test the limits. You don't know the legal circumstance of that family, and you're asking for trouble if you test the waters. Save yourself any headache and don't post them

I'd totally still shoot them and take their money, no probs with that.



Aug 17, 2012 at 04:06 PM
gridironphoto
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


I think that the current wife of the brother in law is the smartest one in the bunch. Rather than stir up drama, she stays friendly.

My take is that with joint custody, the mother may have a leg to stand on legally, but who cares? Are you the NYT's or Time magazine with a legal staff trained in these matters that will take a stand to preserve an entire industry, or would $5,000 in legal fees just to get into the courtroom eat up months of your hard work for a couple of publicity pics that you could duplicate in a couple of hours with just the original family?

My advice is to be smarter than the average bear. Call her and tell her that you completely understand her objections to the use of her child's picture on the internet. Then send her a nice picture of her child with his/her cousins in a nice size (5x7 or 8x10) with a nice note.

Now the girl that is at odds with you and bad mouthing you or whatever will now see you as a neutral party and not in an adversarial manner. Maybe it will temper her bad feelings, or maybe it won't. But it won't be because you did not do what you could to fix the situation.

If both of you win, none of you loses.



Aug 17, 2012 at 05:20 PM
Osai
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Morganbeaudry wrote:
You've got the consent of one parent, the one involved in the activity in question i.e.: getting the shots done. I don't believe the law requires a consensus from divorced parents but then again I'm not a lawyer. If I had to guess I'd say she doesn't have any legal basis for a complaint. Get the commercial use waiver signed up by the dad and you oughta be fine.


Worst advice ever!!! Like you say, you aren't a lawyer. The OP said that she had JOINT custody. Yes, she DOES have a legal basis for a complaint.



Aug 17, 2012 at 05:37 PM
Osai
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Morganbeaudry wrote:
With all due respect, the child as has two parents. Either parent can make decisions for their child, even legal ones, independently. While my own father's contribution to my life doesn't amount to bucket of warm spit, fathers are just as capable of being exemplary parents as mothers are. Mother haven't cornered the market on parental competence and indeed I know many that I wouldn't trust with houseplant based on how I've seen them care for their children.

And let's all keep in mind that the father in this case isn't authorizing a post-trauma organ donation here, just a personal
...Show more

Perspective? Here's a perspective. Its stupid to go looking for trouble. To the OP. Do NOT listen to this guy. He has NOTHING invested in this situation. He can say anything he wants, but YOUR'E the one who will pay.



Aug 17, 2012 at 05:41 PM
Osai
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


To the OP.

You don't have to drop the job, but you don't have to put the shots online or anywhere else.



Aug 17, 2012 at 05:43 PM
ChrisCoy
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!



Aug 17, 2012 at 05:44 PM
 

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lukeb
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


tylerdrumm wrote:
Thanks Luke. Reading through laws really sucks, and I can't find where it explicitly states whether or not both parents need to consent.

5. Shared parental rights and responsibilities. "Shared parental rights and responsibilities" means that most or all aspects of a child's welfare remain the joint responsibility and right of both parents, so that both parents retain equal parental rights and responsibilities, and both parents confer and make joint decisions regarding the child's welfare. Matters pertaining to the child's welfare include, but are not limited to, education, religious upbringing, medical, dental and mental health care, travel arrangements, child care

Since a photoshoot isn't regarding the child's welfare, does this clause make any difference?
...Show more

I wouldn't think so - but I'm not a lawyer. Best to get professional help on this.





Aug 17, 2012 at 05:54 PM
tylerdrumm
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Thanks to everyone who responded with the exception of ChristopherCoy who has absolutely nothing of substance or value to offer, but hey, what's new?

I will remain on course with not putting the images online, respecting the wishes of the mother. Thank you for all of the viewpoints, counter viewpoints, and general banter. You guys have been mucho informative.

Any other general discussion or experience with this type of issue is encouraged. Can't have enough stories from experience, or thoughts on this touchy client situation.



Aug 17, 2012 at 06:31 PM
Ho1972
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


tylerdrumm wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded with the exception of ChristopherCoy who has absolutely nothing of substance or value to offer, but hey, what's new?

I will remain on course with not putting the images online, respecting the wishes of the mother. Thank you for all of the viewpoints, counter viewpoints, and general banter. You guys have been mucho informative.

Any other general discussion or experience with this type of issue is encouraged. Can't have enough stories from experience, or thoughts on this touchy client situation.


I'm late to the party but it sounds like you've listened to reason and have chosen a sensible course of action. Given that the costs associated with defending oneself against a lawsuit can mount quickly -- even the most frivolous suits can be costly -- keeping the Super B placated is well worth whatever personal discomfort it may cause you.



Aug 18, 2012 at 12:17 AM
RustyBug
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


This sounds like a "win the battle" (rights) ... "lose the war" (time & money) dilemma.

I think most people are suggesting you skip the battle and win the war. As one who has played with the "battle" issues on similar matters, I get how/why this gets under you skin. Rights & principle can be very costly items, with tremendous ripple effect. That's where some wisdom & experience can be helpful. There's an old adage @ "It ain't how much you make, its how much you keep that counts." This sounds like a ripe opportunity to open the floodgates at losing what you might otherwise keep.

Shoot it, collect it, deliver it. Done with it.

I don't think it is a matter of respecting the wishes of the mother (as she is likely spitefully overstepping any legitimate rights to dictate to you your business or the father's ability to post the child's picture online @ joint custody) ... but it is a matter of safeguarding your business from an unfortunate anomaly scenario that you have stumbled upon.

As one who has dealt with spiteful mother's and expended the cost to defended rights and principles of father ... the mother doesn't have a leg to stand on (certain legal assumptions made @ "joint custody") ... but what it will cost you to support that position just ain't worth it and quite frankly isn't your place to take up that cross (admirable as it may be) to become intertwined in.



GL




Aug 18, 2012 at 04:18 AM
rodmcwha
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Have you thought about asking the father to send the pics to your website with a thank you note?


Aug 18, 2012 at 04:44 AM
BluesWest
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Yes, I do have somewhat of a vendetta against this woman.

This admission shows that your reason for starting this thread doesn't have anything to do with legal or business issues, but rather a matter of personal politics.

John



Aug 18, 2012 at 06:12 PM
super chet
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


Without the history, I'd honor the wishes of the mother. Given the history, I'd ignore her requests and do what's best for me.

FYI, I am not a pro.



Aug 20, 2012 at 05:59 PM
Daboyle
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


wanna screw her over? Take the shots, give the images of the kid to the dad only and explain what she tried to do, verbatim. Tell him to go ahead and post the photos online - he has complete legal rights to do so Let them duke it out....

Dont get in the battle, but you might be able to instigate some stuff hehe.....



Aug 21, 2012 at 08:43 AM
Z_man
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


"Yes, I do have somewhat of a vendetta against this woman."

Not the best to have said this. If you do post the photos, and she does haul you into court, I'd really hate to have this statement blown up on a 36" board for the jury to see time and time again. I'd abide by her wishes. Why do you have to post the kid anyway? Because you have a vendetta against the mother??



Aug 25, 2012 at 01:57 AM
BriMcD
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · LEGAL QUESTION (Yes, I know this is the internet, and that you're probably not a lawyer)


I shoot Senior sessions and they are minors sometimes. One parent signature for the release allows you to do what you want. Invite her in for a sale a la carte and just inform the ex-husbad that you are doing this. Explain that these images have the right to print by parties that sign your contract. She can not print them or have them. You can enforce it but it's a hassle and not worth the time and money. Get a sale out of her!!!


Aug 27, 2012 at 02:47 AM
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