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Archive 2012 · To film users, a question

  
 
corposant
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p.3 #1 · To film users, a question


rattymouse wrote:
I dont see that at all. This is a friendly discussion from which I have learned a lot. No need to flame bait here.



Not anymore!



Jul 29, 2012 at 07:09 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #2 · To film users, a question


corposant wrote:
Not anymore!


I respectfully disagree, in a friendly manner



Jul 29, 2012 at 07:22 PM
rattymouse
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p.3 #3 · To film users, a question


corposant wrote:
Not anymore!


Well, you can believe what you want. What I learned here convinced me to go forward to buying a film camera. I have been researching this for a long time as I have been out of film for over 10 years. Last week I was thinking that there was no advantage to digitizing a negative over digitizing a scene with a digital camera. Now I know better and see that my understanding of the hybrid process was sorely mistaken.

Seems like some here want this to explode into some huge argument? Sad.



Jul 29, 2012 at 10:33 PM
corposant
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p.3 #4 · To film users, a question


rattymouse wrote:
What I learned here convinced me to go forward to buying a film camera.


So, what did you get?



Jul 29, 2012 at 10:39 PM
rattymouse
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p.3 #5 · To film users, a question


corposant wrote:
So, what did you get?


A Fujifilm GF670, if I can find someone to bring it to me in Shanghai. Fujifilm charges $800 more for this camera here in China compared to the US. That's $800 better spent on film. Hopefully later next month a friend of mine can bring the GF670 to me.




Jul 29, 2012 at 10:58 PM
Makten
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p.3 #6 · To film users, a question


rattymouse wrote:
A Fujifilm GF670, if I can find someone to bring it to me in Shanghai. Fujifilm charges $800 more for this camera here in China compared to the US. That's $800 better spent on film. Hopefully later next month a friend of mine can bring the GF670 to me.


Congrats, that's a fantastic camera! Note that it's the same thing as the Voigtländer Bessa III 667, if you can find one of those cheaper over there.



Jul 30, 2012 at 04:34 AM
rattymouse
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p.3 #7 · To film users, a question


Makten wrote:
Congrats, that's a fantastic camera! Note that it's the same thing as the Voigtländer Bessa III 667, if you can find one of those cheaper over there.


No luck there. Everything is stupidly priced here. I found someone coming to China later next month who will mule it over for me if I decide to go through with it. I have 30 days to reconsider.




Jul 30, 2012 at 08:57 PM
buggz2k
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p.3 #8 · To film users, a question


Oh, bummer...

rattymouse wrote:
No luck there. Everything is stupidly priced here. I found someone coming to China later next month who will mule it over for me if I decide to go through with it. I have 30 days to reconsider.


And with a Heliar!

Makten wrote:
Congrats, that's a fantastic camera! Note that it's the same thing as the Voigtländer Bessa III 667, if you can find one of those cheaper over there.




Jul 30, 2012 at 09:13 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #9 · To film users, a question


I guess I'll be the wet blanket.

I like film, but I find it frustrating.

I shot film from 1979 to around 2000 exclusively, then a couple years of overlap with a D60.

I love digital imaging, and find it opens the doors that were closed to me by film for all those years.

Right away, I found digital much more versatile and responsive to my needs, and better picture accuracy, which has advanced further from film with every passing year.

I've recently tried film again, and although I'm having fun getting reacquainted, it has been an expensive and slow PITA, with lower rez results. Running test rolls in lens and film comparisons, I forget what the point was by the time it gets back (unless I take copious notes, interrupting the photography process), no exif of any kind for a clue! Not even any PP chimping of exposure data!

I don't do any printing, either analog or digital, and don't own my own high quality scanner at this point, so I'm relying on labs to do the development and scans, adding delay and expense to the process.

There is certainly a charm about the the 35mm and 6x7 film images I've been taking, but nowhere near the detail, lack of grain, color fidelity, or color balance of full frame digital 1Ds2 or 5D2 (the 6x7 with slow neg film is close!). Still, it is fun, but more of a novelty for me right now.

My main film cameras are two Contax N1 bodies, a Canon 1N body, and Pentax 67II (with an RB 67 Pro SD system sitting idle). Even the 6x7 can't top the images from the 5D2, at least with the scanning I've been getting at a price I can afford.

On the plus side, the camera bodies are pretty cheap right now -- I got a smoking deal on eBay for the Canon 1N with Power Drive Booster E1 (battery grip) in near pristine condition for $88 shipped. The two Contax cost just over $300 total, plus shipping. But film is getting pricey, and finding decent places to develop and fast turnaround are tough even in L.A.

I'll keep at it for a bit, but feel it is about as useful as trying to maintain a Canon and Nikon system at the same time. I recently bailed out of that a couple months ago. Just too much hassle, even though Nikon is undeniably better at some things, Canon was a better fit for me.

I'm not saying "don't shoot film". Try it -- it might be a good fit for you. Follow your dreams and inclinations, but keep your eyes open and your gaze fixed on results.



Jul 30, 2012 at 10:59 PM
kyrc
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p.3 #10 · To film users, a question


A film scan is a digital sample of the way film records light which is dyes in layers of emulsion..

Film does not have colour interpolation (bayer) and has more of its dynamic range in highlights rather than shadows like digital.

Film scanners that use Tri-linear CCDs record an image without colour interpolation.



Jul 31, 2012 at 01:09 AM
mawz
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p.3 #11 · To film users, a question


Gunzorro wrote:
I guess I'll be the wet blanket.

I like film, but I find it frustrating.

I shot film from 1979 to around 2000 exclusively, then a couple years of overlap with a D60.

I love digital imaging, and find it opens the doors that were closed to me by film for all those years.

Right away, I found digital much more versatile and responsive to my needs, and better picture accuracy, which has advanced further from film with every passing year.

I've recently tried film again, and although I'm having fun getting reacquainted, it has been an expensive and slow PITA, with
...Show more

I can't really disagree (although your 6x7 scans should show more detail than a 5D2, but that's most likely a scanning issue, I'd suggest picking a couple favourite negs and getting Peter to scan them for you). If you're looking for colour fidelity, no grain and colour balance, digital simply does it better. Film is about its non-linearities and grain structure, achieving a look that is difficult from digital without significant post-production skills and their application. Frankly, neither film nor digital is for everyone. Pick the one you prefer and enjoy, or shoot both as I do.

Also IMHO, most of the attraction in shooting film cameras is in the bodies which have not been duplicated for Digital, or at least not in an economic matter. In other words, classic SLR's, Rangefinders and Medium/Large format. There's very few AF bodies I'd really consider for film use for that reason, the Maxxum 7's I still use being one of the rare choices due to their compact size for the performance.



Jul 31, 2012 at 07:32 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #12 · To film users, a question


Fully agreed with mawz.


Jul 31, 2012 at 07:45 AM
mortyb
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p.3 #13 · To film users, a question


Edward, are you happy with your Zeiss Ikon? I've been thinking of getting one. It seems like an awesome RF.


Jul 31, 2012 at 07:54 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #14 · To film users, a question


mortyb wrote:
Edward, are you happy with your Zeiss Ikon? I've been thinking of getting one. It seems like an awesome RF.


Very happy indeed. Compared to the M6, now sold, I find the Ikon better in every respect except build quality. It does feel like a slightly better built Bessa but nothing like an indestructible Leica M. On the other hand, the VF is larger, brighter, easier to focus especially with longer lenses, and flares less than an M. It loads film the common way too. I find the leather half case to be a must if you care about the camera cosmetics. If you're thinking to get a film RF, I would certainly recommend it as the first choice.



Jul 31, 2012 at 08:08 AM
mortyb
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p.3 #15 · To film users, a question


Thanks. I'm seriously considering getting one.


Jul 31, 2012 at 08:16 AM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #16 · To film users, a question


mawz -- Thanks. I think your assessment is pretty spot-on.

I'm sure I could get better IQ with better scans. The 14-24MB images scans I've been getting from 6x7 negs don't equal 21 MP files from the 5D2. If clients pay for pro grade scans, that's great, but at $25+ per scan, I'm not spending that sort of money for my own amusement. I haven't had a client ask for film in at least five years. As a result, sold the 4x5 a few years ago.

I don't find any allure or fascination in older manual cameras -- I've had everything from folding 120 models, RF's, 4x5, on up through the semi-modern all-manual RB67 variants. Invariably, I like the newer electronic technology, and larger bodies. Canon's 1D series, or a 5D series with grip, are just about perfect for me. I'll probably end up keeping the Canon 1N (or maybe move up to a 1V) and the Pentax 67II as my film cameras.

My first camera was the Canon A-1 in 1979, a cutting edge camera for its time. And I've stayed pretty true to that measure.

Anyway, film is an interesting option, and some very fine work is still done using it.



Jul 31, 2012 at 10:18 AM
Dustin Gent
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p.3 #17 · To film users, a question


Gunzorro, where are you getting your scans made at? I use Blue Moon here in Portland, and my results have been superb thus far! I know that MF/LF will smoke my results, lol. Check them out, very good prices as well.


Jul 31, 2012 at 12:15 PM
Jewced
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p.3 #18 · To film users, a question


Gunzorro wrote:
There is certainly a charm about the the 35mm and 6x7 film images I've been taking, but nowhere near the detail, lack of grain, color fidelity, or color balance of full frame digital 1Ds2 or 5D2 (the 6x7 with slow neg film is close!). Still, it is fun, but more of a novelty for me right now.


I find that interesting. My RZ67 with some Portra 400 blows my old D3100 (14mp) and my friend's D5100 (16mp) clear out of the water in terms of detail with a quick scan on my V700. Maximizing the quality of film takes extreme care when you're shooting and I find that there's less wiggle room in PP to fix errors. Even though film has limitations I don't miss shooting digital at all right now. Maybe in a year or so when I'm in college and have less time to shoot I'll start shooting digital again.



Jul 31, 2012 at 02:15 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #19 · To film users, a question


One thing to take into consideration is that commercial scans, especially the ones made with mini lab machines like Fuji or Noritsu, apply automatic grain reduction. The effect is similar to noise reduction but much stronger on the luminance side. My scans from NCPS had aggressive grain reduction on. Some labs would turn off the GR if you ask them, but most don't bother. I believe this is what Gunzorro is complaining about.


Jul 31, 2012 at 03:13 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #20 · To film users, a question


Dustin -- Thanks -- I made note of Blue Moon when you mentioned them on another thread, and checked them out on-line. I have the order form here, and might possibly try them next. Your work looks terrific at web size, and I'd like to see how they do with mine in fine details.

It's tough though, sending film away for processing. I really am geared to go out and test lenses, then look at the results within an hour or less, then go back out if needed. A week or two is like an eternity for me, trying to even remember why I took a certain shot. But in a way it is better than the "Old Days", running down to Hollywood to drop off film, then come back in a few hours to pick up -- half a day spent running and waiting and running!

So, thanks, and I've got Blue Moon on the list to try their developing and medium rez scans. I've also got another place here in the San Fernando Valley I want to try for 35mm.

So far I tried Costco first to check if the cameras were working, then the local professional lab in Simi Valley, and then sending off to North Coast in Carlsbad, CA (on the recommendation of corposant). Ideally, I'd like a local lab with quick turnaround for developing and scan-proofing at around 8MP at a cheap price.

Jewced -- That's interesting. I can definitely see the clumpy grain in jpgs and tifs from ISO 100 negative film in the 6x7, as well as reduced DR when I got to PP the images. I can see it in the film with a 10X loupe, besides the 100% size on screen. I agree, film is somewhat more finicky for exposure, and I do take good care to make the right settings.

Although I have experience with film from earlier times, this is new: getting scans done and trying to manipulate them in post. Previously, this was always done by specialists in advertising, graphics design, or printing pre-press. I never got my "hands dirty", just expected amazing results on medium and large format.

edward -- That could be part of my problem indeed! I asked if they could make tifs for me instead of jpgs, as I didn't want much in the way of NR and compression artifacts, but alas, they could not provide RAW or uncompressed tif files. The local lab does tif, but their film handling leaves something to be desired -- scratches and debris. Costco -- forget it -- jpgs and no QA on even color balance or exposure -- like they set it for the day, and then run everything at one setting. !!

I'm sure I'd be much happier if I wasn't trying to do this on the cheap. :\



Jul 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM
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