A few 5d3 questions

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A few 5d3 questions

caad4rep
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p.1 #1 · A few 5d3 questions

I'm a long time Nikon shooter am seriously considering a switch to the 5d3. I've been contemplating a switch to Canon for the past 5 years and am getting closer to pulling the trigger each year. I feel that Canon has a stronger lens line up and ergonomics which make more sense to me.

A couple questions though. Can I make the viewfinder clear except for the active focus point? Nothing in the view finder except for one little box that I can move around with the joystick? Is that possible? To my understanding, that box is black and stays black though, correct?

On various blogs and forums I see people complaining about low ISO banding, especially at ISO 100. Is this a real issue or do you only run into it if you are really try to pull stuff out of shadows and dark areas?

Are Canon warranties transferrable if I buy used?

My understanding is that gray market products have no warranties but willbe serviced by canon usa for a fee, correct?

Thanks everyone

Jul 28, 2012 at 01:54 PM

Rickuz
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p.1 #2 · A few 5d3 questions

I can answer 3 of your questions.

1. The low ISO banding is real, and it seems that Canon doesn't know how to get rid of it, nor how to improve the low ISO dynamic range. It has pretty much remained on the same level since the 5D2 sensor came out. Lifting shadows on photos from a 5D2 or 5D3 is nightmarish compared to doing it on photos from - let's say the Nikon D800. The Exmor sensor reigns supreme in this area.

2. If you buy a used Canon camera that still has warranty, you'll have the warranty. (EDIT: Apparently the warranty is ment only for the original purchaser. But in many cases (like mine) Canon will honor the warranty even if you are not the original purchaser.)

3. No warranty for gray market products, but yes, you can get service from Canon by paying for it.

Edited on Jul 28, 2012 at 02:51 PM · View previous versions

Jul 28, 2012 at 01:59 PM

dhphoto
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p.1 #3 · A few 5d3 questions

Rickuz wrote:
I can answer 3 of your questions.

1. The low ISO banding is real, and it seems that Canon doesn't know how to get rid of it, nor how to improve the low ISO dynamic range. It has pretty much remained on the same level since the 5D2 sensor came out. Lifting shadows on photos from a 5D2 or 5D3 is nightmarish compared to doing it on photos from - let's say the Nikon D800. The Exmor sensor reigns supreme in this area.

2. If you buy a used Canon camera that still has warranty, you'll have the warranty.

3. No warranty for gray market products, but yes, you can get service from Canon by paying for it.

Utterly wrong.

On the 5DII there is NO BANDING AT ALL if you don't play silly buggers with the shadows. I have shot thousands and thousands of shots and never seen it at all. But then I can expose properly. Can't speak for the 5DIII

Warranties are not transferable. If you buy used you will have no warranty from Canon.

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:11 PM

Gregory Edge
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p.1 #4 · A few 5d3 questions

The warranty is to the original purchaser. However many have reported that Canon will honor the warranty even if you are not the original owner. The same goes for Grey market. Canon will sometimes honor the warranty sometimes not. Do not expect them to honor it for Grey market or used and if they do that is a plus.

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:18 PM

Rickuz
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p.1 #5 · A few 5d3 questions

dhphoto wrote:
Rickuz wrote:
I can answer 3 of your questions.

1. The low ISO banding is real, and it seems that Canon doesn't know how to get rid of it, nor how to improve the low ISO dynamic range. It has pretty much remained on the same level since the 5D2 sensor came out. Lifting shadows on photos from a 5D2 or 5D3 is nightmarish compared to doing it on photos from - let's say the Nikon D800. The Exmor sensor reigns supreme in this area.

2. If you buy a used Canon camera that still has warranty, you'll have the warranty.

3. No warranty for gray market products, but yes, you can get service from Canon by paying for it.

Utterly wrong.

On the 5DII there is NO BANDING AT ALL if you don't play silly buggers with the shadows. I have shot thousands and thousands of shots and never seen it at all. But then I can expose properly. Can't speak for the 5DIII

Warranties are not transferable. If you buy used you will have no warranty from Canon.
Oh spare me the bs about exposing properly. Everybody knows that the 5D2 suffers from banding, and so does the 5D3. And yes it comes out when you try to push the shadows. The banding is a noise pattern exclusive to Canon, and the worst part is that it is impossible to remove in PP.

If you think that theres always a way to get proper exposure in a single shot, and if you never have the need to push shadows, then your area of photography must be very limited.

About the warranty part, I have personally bought used gear that still had warranty, and it worked just fine when I sent it in for calibration.

Gregory Edge wrote:
The warranty is to the original purchaser. However many have reported that Canon will honor the warranty even if you are not the original owner.
Well then, that explains it. Canon has always honored the warranty on my used purchases. (Canon Thailand and Canon Sweden).

Edited on Jul 28, 2012 at 02:37 PM · View previous versions

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:31 PM

caad4rep
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p.1 #6 · A few 5d3 questions

Rickuz wrote:
dhphoto wrote:
Rickuz wrote:
I can answer 3 of your questions.

1. The low ISO banding is real, and it seems that Canon doesn't know how to get rid of it, nor how to improve the low ISO dynamic range. It has pretty much remained on the same level since the 5D2 sensor came out. Lifting shadows on photos from a 5D2 or 5D3 is nightmarish compared to doing it on photos from - let's say the Nikon D800. The Exmor sensor reigns supreme in this area.

2. If you buy a used Canon camera that still has warranty, you'll have the warranty.

3. No warranty for gray market products, but yes, you can get service from Canon by paying for it.

Utterly wrong.

On the 5DII there is NO BANDING AT ALL if you don't play silly buggers with the shadows. I have shot thousands and thousands of shots and never seen it at all. But then I can expose properly. Can't speak for the 5DIII

Warranties are not transferable. If you buy used you will have no warranty from Canon.
Oh spare me the bs about exposing properly. Everybody knows that the 5D2 suffers from banding, and so does the 5D3. And yes it comes out when you try to push the shadows. The banding is a noise pattern exclusive to Canon, and the worst part is that it is impossible to remove in PP.

If you think that theres always a way to get proper exposure in a single shot, and if you never have the need to push shadows, then your area of photography must be very limited.

About the warranty part, I have personally bought used gear that still had warranty, and it worked just fine when I sent it in for calibration.

I'm not trying to start or anything but I guess my photography would be limited. I grew up on film and always tried to get a good exposure straight out of the camera. If that wasn't possible I guess I'd have to try again in better lighting.

I'm not asking about worst case scenerio or how to maximize dynamic range. Is banding a problem straight out of the camera or only when heavily post processed?

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:37 PM

Rickuz
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p.1 #7 · A few 5d3 questions

caad4rep wrote:I'm not trying to start or anything but I guess my photography would be limited. I grew up on film and always tried to get a good exposure straight out of the camera. If that wasn't possible I guess I'd have to try again in better lighting.

I'm not asking about worst case scenerio or how to maximize dynamic range. Is banding a problem straight out of the camera or only when heavily post processed?

It is not a problem straight out of the camera. You will never see the banding in normal case scenarios.

But the banding will always come out when you do heavy shadow lifting, even at ISO 100.

Heavier shadow lifting is some times necessary due to contrasty scenes where a GND filter or HDR techniques doesn't work. It saddens me that some people (like dhphoto) refuse to acknowledge this.

Edited on Jul 28, 2012 at 02:53 PM · View previous versions

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:39 PM

Binh Ly
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p.1 #8 · A few 5d3 questions

I've used a 5D3 for a few months now and banding is not a problem straight of of the camera. But then again I don't heavily process my pictures so I cannot speak to that. Even if it did come out after you did some PP, I would probably just think about when would it "practically" affect you. For example, assuming there is some banding in a file, but you only mostly view files in say 800x600 72PPI JPG on a monitor or make prints up to say 8x12, that banding is practically NIL and will likely never affect you.

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:46 PM

garyvot
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p.1 #9 · A few 5d3 questions

caad4rep wrote:Can I make the viewfinder clear except for the active focus point? Nothing in the view finder except for one little box that I can move around with the joystick? Is that possible? To my understanding, that box is black and stays black though, correct?

Yes, you can control the visibility of the focusing point array to hide all but the active point, or hide it altogether. AF point illumination changes depending on whether you are in One Shot or AI Servo (continuous) AF. In One Shot, the active AF point illuminates during focus acquisition; in AI Servo it does not (but is visible as a black square).

caad4rep wrote

n various blogs and forums I see people complaining about low ISO banding, especially at ISO 100. Is this a real issue or do you only run into it if you are really try to pull stuff out of shadows and dark areas?

Honestly, this is a non-issue for most of us. There is indeed more shadow noise at ISO 100 than with the latest Nikon bodies, but in my experience you have to lift the shadows by a couple of stops before it becomes an issue, and noise reduction in post can usually mitigate it. In rare cases with the 5D2 you may get some pattern noise (banding) which is hard to remove in post, but I haven't really seen this with the 5D3.

One thing that can significantly affect this is the Highlight Tone Priority setting. This must be disabled to maximize low ISO dynamic range and minimize shadow noise; I think many reports of "horrible" shadow noise are probably due to having this turned on.

There is a trick that Fred Miranda uses for landscapes which is to shoot at ISO 50 to maximize shadow detail. The 5D3 also has a built-in HDR mode (for JPEGs) and a usefully wide auto bracketing feature (for HDR RAW captures).

I'm not denying that the Sony Exmor sensors are better in this regard, but you will see a lot of breathless posts here that make it sound like Canon cameras are basically unusable at low ISO. I think most intelligent people can discern that the truth is more nuanced than that.

Jul 28, 2012 at 02:49 PM

geniousc
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p.1 #10 · A few 5d3 questions

garyvot wrote:
caad4rep wrote:Can I make the viewfinder clear except for the active focus point? Nothing in the view finder except for one little box that I can move around with the joystick? Is that possible? To my understanding, that box is black and stays black though, correct?

Yes, you can control the visibility of the focusing point array to hide all but the active point, or hide it altogether. AF point illumination changes depending on whether you are in One Shot or AI Servo (continuous) AF. In One Shot, the active AF point illuminates during focus acquisition; in AI Servo it does not (but is visible as a black square).

caad4rep wrote

Jul 28, 2012 at 03:46 PM

leftcoastlefty
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p.1 #11 · A few 5d3 questions

Yep, garyvot gets the gold medal answer in this thread. +1

Jul 28, 2012 at 04:44 PM

Don Clary
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p.1 #12 · A few 5d3 questions

caad4rep: I’ve read your www blog, so have a better understanding. I’ve had no dealing with Nikon service, but in two services with Canon, it was responsive, excellent, and fast. Just hang in there with Nikon, and your problems will be fixed.

You have a huge edge over us, in that you have a D800, a set of Nikon lenses, including the magnificent 14-24mm, and no huge inventory of Canon lenses to sell. You have a staggering edge in low ISO high dynamic range in the D800 over Canon. If you shoot weddings, with fast shooting of white dresses and black suits in high contrast lighting, that dynamic range would be wonderful. But you don’t seem to do that type of shooting.

My suggestion to you, is to closely examine what lenses you need and will buy. You determine if Nikon or Canon can supply those specific lenses that YOU will use.

I treasure my Canon 100L macro with 4 stop IS (Image stabilization) with both angular and lateral correction. My superb lightweight travel lens (70-200 f4L IS) is not matched by Nikon. I love the relative cost and incredible performance of my 500 f4 L IS lens. Perhaps a Canon 24mm tilt shift lens is just what you need for landscapes.

If Canon offers a lens or lenses that you must have, then change. Otherwise, stay with your Nikon system. It will produce great pictures for you.

Jul 28, 2012 at 05:59 PM

dhphoto
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p.1 #13 · A few 5d3 questions

Don Clary wrote:
You have a staggering edge in low ISO high dynamic range in the D800 over Canon. If you shoot weddings, with fast shooting of white dresses and black suits in high contrast lighting, that dynamic range would be wonderful.

Sorry, but that's just silly.

Could you look at a wedding album and tell, definitively, it was shot with a Nikon or a Canon?

Not a chance.

Yes, the D800 is a fine camera if you always want vast images (the lack of an mRAW mode is a terrible oversight) but it does not make other cameras or other photographers obsolete by it's excellence. Not in any way.

Jul 28, 2012 at 06:07 PM

ronno
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p.1 #14 · A few 5d3 questions

I have shot hundreds of thousands of images with 5D cameras (Mark I, and II) and I have run into an issue with banding I think twice in total. And those were seriously underexposed images - my fault.

Ask yourself, is there any way this camera would have gotten this popular with serious pros all over the world if their images consistently had banding across them?

Get a 5D2 (borrow or rent one) and you will know if it will work for you or not. If you have a server I will send you a few RAW files and you can give them a go.

www.ronpurdy.com

Jul 28, 2012 at 06:29 PM

Don Clary
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p.1 #15 · A few 5d3 questions

http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/

Part II Controlled tests

I quote Fred’s report: “Obviously, the Nikon D800 is in a totally different league. Absent of color noise or any pattern, this image reveals Nikon's exceptional performance … There is no question that the D800 does not disappoint in signal to noise ratio (SNR) at low ISO and has higher dynamic range. I'm still shocked by the differences.”

I agree with garyvot's opinion that "Honestly, this is a non-issue for most of us". I've shot 2 5DII for 3 years and never got banding in any real picture (as opposed to a camera torture test). But I could see it is an issue for fast wedding shooting.

Could you look at a wedding album and tell, definitively, it was shot with a Nikon or a Canon? Under extreme high dynamic range, fast wedding shooting, it would appear in a Nikon shooters submissions to the customer. A Canon shooter would never show that image to his customer. A wedding photographer will only show his best work.

A customer has no concept of whether lighting conditions are good or bad. He is just concerned, is the picture good?

Jul 28, 2012 at 06:32 PM

mttran
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p.1 #16 · A few 5d3 questions

Don Clary wrote:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/

Part II Controlled tests

I quote Fred’s report: “Obviously, the Nikon D800 is in a totally different league. Absent of color noise or any pattern, this image reveals Nikon's exceptional performance … There is no question that the D800 does not disappoint in signal to noise ratio (SNR) at low ISO and has higher dynamic range. I'm still shocked by the differences.”

I agree with garyvot's opinion that "Honestly, this is a non-issue for most of us". I've shot 2 5DII for 3 years and never got banding in any real picture (as opposed to a camera torture test). But I could see it is an issue for fast wedding shooting.

Could you look at a wedding album and tell, definitively, it was shot with a Nikon or a Canon? Under extreme high dynamic range, fast wedding shooting, it would appear in a Nikon shooters submissions to the customer. A Canon shooter would never show that image to his customer. A wedding photographer will only show his best work.

A customer has no concept of whether lighting conditions are good or bad. He is just concerned, is the picture good?

+1, it would be nice if canon resolved this 7 yrs issue in their next generation cams...i am still waitting for it.

Jul 28, 2012 at 06:59 PM

dhphoto
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p.1 #17 · A few 5d3 questions

Don Clary wrote:

Could you look at a wedding album and tell, definitively, it was shot with a Nikon or a Canon? Under extreme high dynamic range, fast wedding shooting, it would appear in a Nikon shooters submissions to the customer. A Canon shooter would never show that image to his customer. A wedding photographer will only show his best work.

Show an example please,this is pure conjecture

Jul 28, 2012 at 07:54 PM

Al_10D
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p.1 #18 · A few 5d3 questions

Rickuz wrote:
I can answer 3 of your questions.

1. The low ISO banding is real, and it seems that Canon doesn't know how to get rid of it,

To me it seems that you don't know how to expose properly.

Edited on Jul 28, 2012 at 08:14 PM · View previous versions

Jul 28, 2012 at 08:01 PM

MayaTlab
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p.1 #19 · A few 5d3 questions

If banding appears in your pictures, it's quite easily removed by softwares the likes of Dfine with specific de-banding algorithms, with almost no harm done to the picture.

However removing banding will not reduce overall noise levels in the shadows, which are definitely higher on the 5D III than on my other cameras (D700, X-pro 1). Careful PP will alleviate the issue, but not eliminate it.

In practical terms I think I can usually push shadows up to a maximum of 2 stops, if I won't use the picture at full resolution and if the pushed areas are quite small and not very important to the overall picture. This is assuming a properly exposed picture of a high-contrast situation.

I don't think though that for most of us this issue should detract one from buying the 5D III. It's sometimes there though, you just have to adapt to it.

Jul 28, 2012 at 08:04 PM

dhphoto
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p.1 #20 · A few 5d3 questions

This whole discussion is and always was about what a user expects from their gear. I have used every type of large, medium and small format film camera (with B&W and transparency and colour neg film) and used digital since 2003.

I know what my cameras can and can't do. I know how to expose and to use contrast lowering techniques to bring the contrast of a scene within a range the camera can handle. Any good photographer knows how to do this. It's part of the job.

A poor photographer expects the camera to do it all, surprise surprise, they can't. They blame the gear.

It's a perfect example of poor workmen blaming their tools.

If you know what you're doing there is no banding on the 5DII. None.

Jul 28, 2012 at 08:26 PM

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