5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

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Suresh T
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p.1 #1 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Just got back from an Alaska trip where I used my 5D2 + 70-300L for wildlife. Talking to other photographers I ran into, many of them had a 1.6x sensor (7D/60D) with 70-200L/100-400L lenses, in *addition* to a full frame (5D/5D2/5D3), for the extra reach the 1.6x gave them.

So I'm now considering a 7D addition (I'll justify it as cheaper than upgrading my 5D2 to a 5D3 :-)), but wanted to check with others on this forum:

1. For telephoto shots, are the 7D + 1.6x pixels "better" than the 5D2 + crop pixels, considering the sensor quality differences including megapixel counts

2. Any other pros/cons from those of you who have both a FF and 1.6x crop sensor cameras?

TIA!

Jul 27, 2012 at 06:14 AM

JimboCin
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p.1 #2 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Suresh: You might want to take a look at THIS.

Jim

Jul 27, 2012 at 08:03 AM

Ferrophot
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p.1 #3 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

All the posts I've seen on this in FM say that the 7D(1.6x) is better than the 5Dx and cropping in PP. For Suresh an alternate and less expensive option might be 5D2+1.4X or 2X and his 70-300L. Do the Canon converters fit, might have to use a Kenko?

Jul 27, 2012 at 08:15 AM

Lars Johnsson
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p.1 #4 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

You also have the option to buy a 1 series 1,3x crop body like the 1D2, 1D2N or 1D3. The reach will be in between those other bodies. And you will have much better AF and also AF at f/8 if you use extenders for more reach

Jul 27, 2012 at 08:45 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #5 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Get a 7D. It will give you better results than resorting to extenders with your 5D2.

Taken with 7D & 100-400:

2013 © Imagemaster

Canon EOS 7D 400 mm f/5.6 1/2000 sec 400 ISO 0.0 EV

Jul 27, 2012 at 02:05 PM

StarNut
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p.1 #6 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

When I started doing birds/wildlife, I found that my 5D2 was not particularly well-suited to the task, so I added a 7D (only $1100 from the CLP).

The better autofocus was the best thing about the 7D. The sensor has about twice the pixel density (theoretically gives about 1.4x--sqrt(2)--"reach" advantage over the 5d2. But I also found that much of my bird/wildlife photography was taken at relatively high ISO, at which the 5d2 is significantly superior to the 7D; this (together with the superior IQ of the 5d2) negated a good deal of the theoretical reach advantage. But the AF still made the 7D the easy choice for birds/wildlife, over the 5d2.

Then I got a 5d3; essentially the same megapixel count as the 5d2, but much better AF. Now I'll use the 5d3 if I only want to carry one body, and I'll even use the 5d3 over the 7D if I have both, if there's any chance I'm not reach limited, the IQ of the 5-series being so much better.

It's more expensive to upgrade a 5d2 to a 5d3 than to buy a 7d, but having a body that "does it all" can be quite convenient (especially if having a backup isn't crucial to you).

JMO

Jul 27, 2012 at 02:16 PM

OwlsEyes
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p.1 #7 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

I use both bodies and opted to buy a second 7D rather than upgrade my 5DII to a 5DIII. For travel nature photography (my genre) I carry a 5DII for landscape and macro work and relegate my 2-7D's to a 300 f2.8IS and 100-400L IS. This keeps me from having to change lenses in cold, wet and dusty conditions. While the 7D's af is not as brilliant as the new 5D camera... I've compared the set, it is good enough for my needs. In some ways the fewer af spots is a little liberating for my style.

If I owned or could afford a 500mm f4 IS or the new 200-400 w/ built in converter I'd be using 5D-3's, but since I am focal length limited, I'm relying on the density of pixels to compensate. Regarding the 1DII or 1DIII... I've owned and used them both... great AF system and speed. Both are better cameras (as machines) than the 5D or 7D, but... they are large and heavy. If you hike with your gear... anything more than 5km, you will feel the impact of that extra mass. Personally, I have chosen to carry heavier tripods and ball heads and work with lesser camera bodies.
ymmv...
cheers,
bruce
http://bruceleventhal.blogspot.com

Jul 27, 2012 at 02:19 PM

jerrykur
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p.1 #8 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Lars Johnsson wrote:
You also have the option to buy a 1 series 1,3x crop body like the 1D2, 1D2N or 1D3. The reach will be in between those other bodies. And you will have much better AF and also AF at f/8 if you use extenders for more reach

That is what I do. I have a 1DMK3 and find that the 1.3x comes in handy.

Jul 27, 2012 at 02:21 PM

Suresh T
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p.1 #9 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Thanks all for the advice, it has helped me decide...

Jim, thanks for that link. (I also found a bunch more threads on this forum related to "5D2 7D".) skibum5's test images seem to show a significant enough advantage for the 7D over 5D2+crop, despite the 5D2's better overall IQ.

Ferrophot, the 70-300L is unfortunately not supported by Canon's 1.4x. Kenko's does seem to support the 70-300L. However, I'm worried about losing IQ and a stop.

Lars, the 1D series is tempting but a little too big and heavy for my style, I have to travel light.

Also I haven't done a lot of BIF so far, this is more for larger and slower wildlife, so the 7D's better AF and framerate is probably not that important to me (just the 1.6x).

I've also considered upgrading to a 5D3, but for better reach (or "more pixels per duck" as someone on this forum has said), an additional 7D sounds like a better way to go.

Adding to my confusion, I also saw a thread on this forum about a possible 7D2 announcement at Photokina in about a month.

So what did I decide? To wait for now. :-) At least until Photokina.

Jul 28, 2012 at 08:44 AM

Dave Bachrach
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p.1 #10 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

+1 7D as "imagemaster" said.

I live in Alaska, own a 7D and mainly photograph wildlife. It's a great camera for wildlife and with a 17-55 f/2.8 does a good job with landscapes too. I've used a 5dmk2 for some projects but would not trade it for my 7D. So if you're going to photograph wildlife I would go for the 7D. All the images below are with a 7D.

2013 © Dave Bachrach

Canon EOS 7D 200 mm f/5.6 1/3200 sec 800 ISO 0.0 EV

2013 © Dave Bachrach

Canon EOS 7D 17 mm f/11.0 1/160 sec 100 ISO 0.0 EV

Jul 28, 2012 at 05:46 PM

safcraft
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p.1 #11 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

jerrykur wrote:
Lars Johnsson wrote:
You also have the option to buy a 1 series 1,3x crop body like the 1D2, 1D2N or 1D3. The reach will be in between those other bodies. And you will have much better AF and also AF at f/8 if you use extenders for more reach

That is what I do. I have a 1DMK3 and find that the 1.3x comes in handy.

With only 8mp or 10mp the 1d2/1d3 does not offer more ducks per pixel than a 5D2.
In fact the pixel density 1D2 = 5D (original) , so the 5D2 is 2x more pixels than the 1D2.

Using the Kenko 1.4X and ability to focus at f8 gets it closer though...but high iso on that camera is a no no.

Jul 28, 2012 at 10:44 PM

skibum5
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p.1 #12 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

JimboCin wrote:
Suresh: You might want to take a look at THIS.

Jim

yeah that was the controlled test I just did and it verified in the field results, 7D more than makes up for anything it's photosites have going against it compared to 5D2 for distant wildlife

so yeah 7D will definitely give you more effective reach (you do need to nail focus and use high enough shutter speed of course)

(of course if you CAN get close enough the 5D3 is easily better than the 5D2/7D since it has better AF than both and better IQ than the 7D in that scenario (And than the 5D2 if the ISO gets to be higher, although it's not any sort of earth shattering advantage))

Jul 28, 2012 at 11:43 PM

pKai
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p.1 #13 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

7D+5D2 is the way to go.... That's what I use and I love that combination. Lens-wise, for wildlife, I use a 70-300 4-5.6L and 400 5.6L. 600 F4L gets rented as needed. On the 7D, that's a whopping 960mm and 1344mm with the 1.4 TC which the 600 takes very well.

I've been considering dumping the 7d for a 1D4 (1.3 crop) since used prices seems to be coming down since the 1DX came out. They're about $3k now and should drop further over the next few months. To test this idea, I borrowed one from CPS... It came yesterday, so not much shooting.... so far, I like it. We'll see if I like it enough to part with my 7D+$2 grand and give up some resolution. I'm expecting much faster, much more accurate AF in addition to the 10fps and IQ on par or better than the 7D.

Jul 29, 2012 at 03:10 AM

StarNut
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p.1 #14 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

pKai wrote:
On the 7D, that's a whopping 960mm and 1344mm with the 1.4 TC which the 600 takes very well

No it isn't. It's the same field of view on the 7D as a 960 gives on a full frame sensor, but that isn't at all the same thing as thinking that a 1.6 crop sensor has some magic giving lenses 1.6 times the focal length.

"Crop reach," when used correctly, refers to crop sensors with higher pixel density than a full frame sensor. The 7D has a pixel density of about twice the 5d2/5d3, giving it a theoretical 1.4x crop reach (square root of 2), assuming equal image quality at the selected ISO.

Jul 29, 2012 at 03:39 AM

Suresh T
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p.1 #15 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

Dave Bachrach wrote:
+1 7D as "imagemaster" said.

I live in Alaska, own a 7D and mainly photograph wildlife. It's a great camera for wildlife and with a 17-55 f/2.8 does a good job with landscapes too. I've used a 5dmk2 for some projects but would not trade it for my 7D. So if you're going to photograph wildlife I would go for the 7D. All the images below are with a 7D.

Great pictures! Just out of curiosity, where was the bear picture taken at? We considered visiting Brooks falls this last trip, but it got a bit complicated, so need to wait until the next trip.

Jul 29, 2012 at 04:15 AM

Suresh T
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p.1 #16 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

skibum5 wrote:

yeah that was the controlled test I just did and it verified in the field results, 7D more than makes up for anything it's photosites have going against it compared to 5D2 for distant wildlife

so yeah 7D will definitely give you more effective reach (you do need to nail focus and use high enough shutter speed of course)

(of course if you CAN get close enough the 5D3 is easily better than the 5D2/7D since it has better AF than both and better IQ than the 7D in that scenario (And than the 5D2 if the ISO gets to be higher, although it's not any sort of earth shattering advantage))

Yeah on this last Alaska trip, getting close was rarely an option, so 7D for now, and 5D2-to-5D3 for later. :-)

Jul 29, 2012 at 04:18 AM

Suresh T
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p.1 #17 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

StarNut wrote:
pKai wrote:
On the 7D, that's a whopping 960mm and 1344mm with the 1.4 TC which the 600 takes very well

No it isn't. It's the same field of view on the 7D as a 960 gives on a full frame sensor, but that isn't at all the same thing as thinking that a 1.6 crop sensor has some magic giving lenses 1.6 times the focal length.

"Crop reach," when used correctly, refers to crop sensors with higher pixel density than a full frame sensor. The 7D has a pixel density of about twice the 5d2/5d3, giving it a theoretical 1.4x crop reach (square root of 2), assuming equal image quality at the selected ISO.

I see what you mean. I did some more calculation taking into account the exact pixel (21.1/18) and sensor size (24x36/18x24) differences, and came up with 1.7x pixel density for the 7D (versus the 5D2), which comes out to an theoretical 1.3x crop reach. (Let me know if I didn't do that right.)

So 70-300L on the 7D gives a reach equivalent of about 390mm on the 5D2, or pretty close to a 400/5.6 lens. That's probably good enough for me.

An extra 7D body isn't exactly light (compared to a Kenko 1.4x), but it won't lose a stop, and will probably also be handy for the times when I need to keep switching between landscape (5D2+24-105L/17-40L) and wildlife (7D+70-300L). I only wish I'd done this before my Alaska trip.

EDIT: See http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1135216/1#10845458 for updated precise calculation (7D versus 5D2 is actually about 1.5x).

Edited on Jul 31, 2012 at 01:30 AM · View previous versions

Jul 29, 2012 at 04:34 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #18 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

I have 5dii, 5diii, and 7d. Typically most of my best shots are with 7d, because of the reach. 5dii is about 1 stop better than 7d. I find that ISO 1600 is acceptable on 7d and ISO 3200 is acceptable on 5dii. But I will push the 7d to 3200 iso, if thats what it takes to get motion blur down. And if the light is coming from the right direction, the 7d usually does a good job.

So I recommend you get the 7d. Cropping 5dii to the size of 7d does not do as good a job and 8fps and better focus ability of 7d over 5dii, make it worth while.

Even now that I have the 5diii, I tend to use the 7d more because of reach in good light.

Jul 29, 2012 at 04:37 AM

Suresh T
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p.1 #19 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

After thinking it over some more, I decided not to wait after all - come Photokina, the rumored 7D2 may turn out to be a FF, or too expensive, or non-existent. :-) Just went ahead and ordered a new 7D!

Jul 29, 2012 at 04:39 AM

pKai
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p.1 #20 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?

I was just trying to present to the OP in simple terms what he will actually see through the viewfinder. He will see a similar FOV with a 600 as a 960mm lens would see. Yes, perspective would not be the same, DOF will not be the same, etc, etc, etc....... that aside, for all practical purposes, a 600 is a 960 on a 7D.

Suresh T wrote:

An extra 7D body isn't exactly light (compared to a Kenko 1.4x), but it won't lose a stop, and will probably also be handy for the times when I need to keep switching between landscape (5D2+24-105L/17-40L) and wildlife (7D+70-300L). I only wish I'd done this before my Alaska trip.

True, but there's much more to the 7D than reach/crop. The AF system on a 7D is much faster than the 5D2 -- fast-moving critters and specially BIF will yield a much higher hit rate than on a 5D2. Then there's 8fps VS 4 and all the 2.0 firmware updates coming in a few weeks.

Congrats on your purchase!

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:59 PM

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