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Archive 2012 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)
  
 
kazinvan
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p.1 #1 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


I have been trying to get a grip on jpg export from Lightroom and I'm not sure how to address the issue. I understand a bit about color spaces. I shoot in RAW, Adobe RGB, import into Lightroom as ProPhoto RGB, do my edits, and export for web display as sRGB jpeg for compatibility.

I use ProPhoto to provide the largest color gamut for editing however it's not ideal when displaying jpegs on the web. The problem I'm having is that I get color shifts in my images and it is very noticeable on skin tones, they become more red. I have tried opening the NEF in Photoshop and using 'save for web' but that didn't help. I have also tried to soft proof in Lightroom, select sRGB profile, create a proof and export that proof to jpeg. Same problem.

Is there a way to avoid this? Should I just import images as sRGB? Ideally I can maintain ProPhoto RGB for the bigger color gamut in case I need to print or for future work. What is the best workflow to display images on the web and maintain the colors?

Note, using a color aware browser like Firefox is not the answer, I can't enforce what people use to view the images.

Thanks for the help.



Jul 24, 2012 at 07:19 PM
CGrindahl
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p.1 #2 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


This is a very complex subject and not one that I pretend to be expert at understanding. That said, I came to an elegant solution made simple by the fact that the ONLY thing I do with images is display them on the web or share them through email which still have them rendered on a computer monitor. I set my D700 for sRGB and my workspace in Photoshop to sRGB and save every image as a JPG with an sRGB color space. I was mesmerized by ProPhoto RGB when it first came out but had problems with images displayed on the web from the beginning. IF your work is for the web you may wish to take the route I did. If you do serious printing you'll have to shoot at the widest gamut possible with your camera color settings then manage the file through post processing, working with a monitor and printer that have been calibrated so results will be accurate. Good luck sorting all this out.


Jul 24, 2012 at 08:20 PM
tomrock
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p.1 #3 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


This doesn't really help, but if you're shooting raw files, setting a color space doesn't matter. Files only get a color space when you render the file to pixels.

So, you shoot raw, import into LR and work on the file. When you export, that's when the file gets placed into a color space.

If you're editing in PS, you want to use ProPhoto. When you export to the web that's when you want sRGB.

Like I said, it doesn't help with your red issue but it may explain things and save you some trouble shooting raw files with a color space selected in the camera.

How do the exported files look when you open them in PS? Do you have PS set to respect color space when you open a file?

I think the problem is non color-aware browsers.



Jul 24, 2012 at 08:34 PM
James_N
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p.1 #4 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


kazinvan wrote:
I have been trying to get a grip on jpg export from Lightroom and I'm not sure how to address the issue. I understand a bit about color spaces. I shoot in RAW, Adobe RGB, import into Lightroom as ProPhoto RGB, do my edits, and export for web display as sRGB jpeg for compatibility.

When shooting raw the only thing influenced by the camera's color space setting is the preview shown on the back of the camera. Unfortunately we are given the option to choose between sRGB and Adobe RGB but that choice only affects the preview and JPEG shooters. Also, its impossible to import a raw file with ProPhoto RGB color space. Lightroom's internal color space is a hybrid called Melissa RGB and it cannot be changed by the user.

The choice of color space is only relevant when the raw data is rendered i.e. converted to a pixel-based file format like TIFF, JPEG or PSD by exporting the file from Lightroom or sending it to Photoshop or other external editors for futher editing.

I use ProPhoto to provide the largest color gamut for editing however it's not ideal when displaying jpegs on the web. The problem I'm having is that I get color shifts in my images and it is very noticeable on skin tones, they become more red. I have tried opening the NEF in Photoshop and using 'save for web' but that didn't help. I have also tried to soft proof in Lightroom, select sRGB profile, create a proof and export that proof to jpeg. Same problem.


Once again, you cannot edit files in ProPhoto RGB in Lightroom; the only working space is Melissa RGB. Is your monitor profiled and calibrated? Have you checked to see if the profile in use by your operating system is corrupt? Lightroom is particularly sensitive to corrupt profiles.

Is there a way to avoid this? Should I just import images as sRGB? Ideally I can maintain ProPhoto RGB for the bigger color gamut in case I need to print or for future work. What is the best workflow to display images on the web and maintain the colors?

Note, using a color aware browser like Firefox is not the answer, I can't enforce what people use to view the images.

Thanks for the help.




Jul 24, 2012 at 09:37 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #5 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


My monitor is calibrated with Sypder.

Thanks for the info on color spaces in LR, however I'm still not sure how to manage my workflow other than to do everything in sRGB to avoid the issues. I guess I'll lose something, but it will prevent issues going forward.



Jul 24, 2012 at 09:53 PM
James_N
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p.1 #6 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Well that's an option but you should not be seeing color shifts when the exported images are viewed outside of Lightroom. Are you viewing them in color-aware software?


Jul 24, 2012 at 10:00 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #7 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


I'm currently testing using Chrome, which is not color aware. However, what I don't get is why would it NOT change if you are exporting into a jpg with a smaller color space (sRGB). How can the image look the same if there are less colors to pick from?


Jul 24, 2012 at 10:58 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.1 #8 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Web = Srgb
Print = Adobe Rgb (for me a non inkjet printer - preferring laser silver halide)
New Inket Printing (wider gamut and bit depth) = Pro Photo RGB

That is being over simplistic, but a way to look at the issue



Jul 24, 2012 at 11:51 PM
unknown_photog
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p.1 #9 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Lightroom does not use the Profoto color space, so I'm not sure where you are editing in Profoto. The only place you can edit in Profoto is in Photoshop. The conversion to sRGB should not impact the reds at all unless you are doing some dramatic tonal expansion of the red channel that falls outside of the sRGB color space and is getting badly compressed in conversion...this is very unlikely though.

My opinion is that you are getting the shift because you are going from a color managed environment like lightroom into one that is not managed and comparing the two is causing the problem. The monitor can many times be at fault even if it's calibrated. If you've got one of those high contrast, glossy super saturated monitors that could do it (RGBLED is known to have red issues). If you reimport the exported srgb files into lightroom do they still look red?

The other option it could be is if you have some kind of export preset enabled that shifts the reds.

If you would like, you can send me a RAW file and I can try the conversion on my end to see if I come up with the same problem.

Andy



Jul 25, 2012 at 03:11 AM
WAYCOOL
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p.1 #10 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Andy not sure about your Lightroom but the one from Adobe uses ProphotoRGB for its internal processing. Google it.

OP is your monitor wide gamut by chance? This could possibly explain the problem your seeing.



Jul 25, 2012 at 04:20 AM
 

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unknown_photog
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p.1 #11 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


@Waycool, all lightrooms not only mine use melissargb which is based on profoto but has the srgb gamma curve, hence the color space is different and why it's called MelissaRGB and not Profoto... Google it.



Jul 25, 2012 at 05:03 AM
bubarker
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p.1 #12 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Only The histogram and RGB percentage values use a 2.2 TRC (Melissa RGB)in Lightroom. LR and ACR process data with ProPhoto primaries and a linear (TRC 1.0 gamma) encoding.


Jul 25, 2012 at 12:29 PM
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p.1 #13 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


I'll offer my method here, maybe it will help you out. I use a calibrated monitor. I shoot in camera with Adobe 1998 profile selected, in RAW. Then edit in Camera Raw as Prophoto. (Make sure the Color settings in PS match the settings in Camera Raw).
Open in PS still in Prophoto, but when it's ready for the web, I use Edit>Convert to profile - sRgb. I have not had any color shifts using this workflow. Try it, it may resolve your shift problem



Jul 25, 2012 at 04:18 PM
Mark Metternich
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p.1 #14 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


allynb wrote:
I'll offer my method here, maybe it will help you out. I use a calibrated monitor. I shoot in camera with Adobe 1998 profile selected, in RAW. Then edit in Camera Raw as Prophoto. (Make sure the Color settings in PS match the settings in Camera Raw).
Open in PS still in Prophoto, but when it's ready for the web, I use Edit>Convert to profile - sRgb. I have not had any color shifts using this workflow. Try it, it may resolve your shift problem



If one shoots in raw, the Adobe RGB in camera mode is unnecessary for that is for Jpegs. When one opens a raw file in Lightroom or ACR they are accessing all the camera information (thus color information) the camera was able to capture. In other words the camera did not give you a raw file only in Adobe RGB. Raw is raw. It is everything.

In Lightroom 4 or ACR 7.1 (the newer versions are better) is where we need to make the critical color space decision.

A calibrated monitor is a must (and different settings for web than for prints).

Editing in Prophoto is great for the newest generation of inkjet prints, but for most other things (web or lessor gamut printers) a detriment IMO.

There is always a little color shifting going on with conversions, but not too bad.

I too used save for web (for web images) due to its automatic stripping of meta data. Also Srgb is embedded.


Edited on Jul 25, 2012 at 06:43 PM · View previous versions



Jul 25, 2012 at 06:39 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #15 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


unknown_photog wrote:
Lightroom does not use the Profoto color space, so I'm not sure where you are editing in Profoto. The only place you can edit in Profoto is in Photoshop. The conversion to sRGB should not impact the reds at all unless you are doing some dramatic tonal expansion of the red channel that falls outside of the sRGB color space and is getting badly compressed in conversion...this is very unlikely though.

My opinion is that you are getting the shift because you are going from a color managed environment like lightroom into one that is not managed and comparing the two
...Show more

Andy, I have done more testing and it does appear to be the apps causing the issue. If I export from LR or PS the jpg seems to be fine when viewed in a color managed app. Those apps that are not color managed, what color space are they using? Is there a way to switch to that color space in LR so you can tailor the colors to the 'lowest common denominator'? I would expect then it would look the same regardless of app, right?



Jul 25, 2012 at 06:40 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #16 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


WAYCOOL wrote:
Andy not sure about your Lightroom but the one from Adobe uses ProphotoRGB for its internal processing. Google it.

OP is your monitor wide gamut by chance? This could possibly explain the problem your seeing.


No, not a wide gamut monitor though calibrated with Spyder.



Jul 25, 2012 at 06:41 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #17 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


allynb wrote:
I'll offer my method here, maybe it will help you out. I use a calibrated monitor. I shoot in camera with Adobe 1998 profile selected, in RAW. Then edit in Camera Raw as Prophoto. (Make sure the Color settings in PS match the settings in Camera Raw).
Open in PS still in Prophoto, but when it's ready for the web, I use Edit>Convert to profile - sRgb. I have not had any color shifts using this workflow. Try it, it may resolve your shift problem


I do 80% of my editing in LR and only go to PS when I need more control or some of the filters. I shoot in RAW, import into LR, have external editor set to ProPhoto, and PS set to ProPhoto as well. To me, this should preserve the greatest amount of color when working with my files.

When I export to jpg, I often do this in LR and it doesn't have the same level of options as PS which is why I thought it may not be doing this correctly. It does seem to work, it may be one of those things I just can't get around. I'm still wondering if I can edit images in whatever color space is used by apps that are not color managed.



Jul 25, 2012 at 06:44 PM
kazinvan
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p.1 #18 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


Also found this page which will test browsers. Out of Firefox, Chrome, and IE9 on Win7 only IE seems to render things properly. There are several demos.

http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/graphics/colorprofiles/default.html



Jul 25, 2012 at 07:08 PM
Ruahrc
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p.1 #19 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


I am not a windows firefox user but I believe you have to explicitly enable the option for firefox to be color managed. After that, it should support things fine.

Don't know about chrome, but I know that Safari under Windows also fully supports color management.

But to get back to an earlier question of yours- is there a way to make a "lowest common denominator" picture- I would say the best you can hope for is to make everything destined for the web to be sRGB. Ultimately, if an end-user is not browsing with a color-managed browser (and more often, an uncalibrated monitor), there is nothing you can do. However, using sRGB as your output will hopefully make things pretty good. Operating on the principle that most monitors have roughly sRGB gamut, and thus uncalibrated monitors and unmanaged browsers will look "close enough" anyway. At least as close as one can hope for some guy running an uncalibrated monitor. There really is nothing you can do about that.

Norman



Jul 25, 2012 at 08:17 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #20 · Lightroom export sRGB vs ProPhoto RGB (JPG)


kazinvan wrote:
Also found this page which will test browsers. Out of Firefox, Chrome, and IE9 on Win7 only IE seems to render things properly

Firefox should be color managed, if you have it set up correctly. IE is only partially color managed it does a lot of conversions to sRGB for some things so it may well seem to display things correctly.

The only safe space for web display is sRGB, since you have no idea what platform, browser, monitor, or monitor calibration is on the viewing end.

I use Profoto RGB throughout my processing, but convert anything for web display to jpeg sRGB.

Brian A



Jul 26, 2012 at 12:15 AM
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