airfrogusmc wrote:
If they move away from what they do best like add video I for one will be very disappointed and the fact a rangefinder will never be able to compete with the Nikon/Canon market for that, is crazy, in my opinion. Plus Leica isn't driven by the same consumer base that drives the big two. I think that move would be a huge mistake.
There's nothing magical in the current M9 CCD. It's a very old sensor tech. If Leica still users their same color filtration, sensor pack and processing, a newer CMOS should give the camera quite a performance boost, regardless of the live view and video options. Even if the M10 does have a video mode, I'm sure it'll be basic and not a replacement for a Canon/Nikon DSLR for video usage.
If the M10 has a sensor like the D800, with Leica's sensor toppings, it will be tremendous for those fantastic lenses.
Hmm, I wonder which option would be preferable to digital Leica users...
M10 - Optional Live View and passable video. Price: $8000
OR
M10 P (for Purist) - same as above with no Live View nor video (simply disabled in software), and of course no red dot/ markings. Price: $9000
I suspect Leica would expect the real purist to go for the M Monochrom anyway so adding options such as Live View on the M10 shouldn't matter. What it would do is make the camera more versatile and thus a viable option for more users who must have the accuracy it brings. Still, if I had the cabbage, I would go for the M Monochrom.
It seems the M10 will have LV and Video. The video part is a bit annoying, but if it means better faster overall performance I would be willing to bear it
LV will open new horizons to M users imo. I am thinking about extension tubes and achromat filters, and maybe longer tele lenses.
The M Monochrome doesn't interest me all that much, since I don't see a huge difference in tonality, and you can't adjust B&W with color channels. It's real advantage seems to be in lowlight performance, where a modern color CMOS would also excel.
An M10, though, may finally grab me, if the rumors are true. We'll see.
edwardkaraa wrote:
It seems the M10 will have LV and Video. The video part is a bit annoying, but if it means better faster overall performance I would be willing to bear it
LV will open new horizons to M users imo. I am thinking about extension tubes and achromat filters, and maybe longer tele lenses.
Well, just about any legacy SLR lens could then be used on it, which would appeal to a huge set of photographers currently not at all interested in Leica. We still have to see what Canon will offer as their mirrorless system, but bets are it won't be FF. That doesn't leave many other manufacturers out there to pick up the FF torch, and it could very well be that Leica will remain the only one. Price will probably be the biggest criticism. Actually, for many it will probably be the poor apparent value for the price. But whatever the case, you can be assured that when Leica releases the M10, there will be many critics.
For me, I don't really care what kind of (FF) sensor is in it, so long as it's not a step back from the M9, which I think should not be difficult to improve upon. Leica seems to be pretty smart and I think they understand that it's the rangefinder that makes the M what it is for so many. The could touch/tweak other aspects, but changing the mechan-optical rangefinder would be a very gutsy move.
Regarding the MM: having only had the chance to try a few of the publicly posted DNG files, I was impressed with how durable those seemed to be. I could push them very, very aggressively and they still looked very good. The amount that can be extracted from shadow areas, all the way down to nearly black, was amazing. I have not experienced anything like it, either analog or digital.
What did impress me about the monochrome was the dynamic range and the really good low light performance. So if indeed the M10 will have more bells and whistles I'm glad I made this choice.
airfrogusmc wrote:
What did impress me about the monochrome was the dynamic range and the really good low light performance. So if indeed the M10 will have more bells and whistles I'm glad I made this choice.
My point is that, in a modern sensor like that in the D800, there is already a large step up in dynamic range and low light performance compared to the M9. So, it takes removing the CFA from an old CCD design to compete with current CMOS sensors with a CFA in place. If the M10 has a D800 level sensor, you're likely going to see as good dynamic range and lowlight performance as the M9 Monochrom, but you'll have the option to shoot in color and/or control color channels during the B&W conversion. We'll see what the M10 brings. What would be really interesting is a modern CMOS with the CFA removed. Now THAT would have amazing lowlight performance.
douglasf13 wrote:
What would be really interesting is a modern CMOS with the CFA removed. Now THAT would have amazing lowlight performance.
+1 on that but I wonder what the actual probability of that happening anytime soon might be. Certainly the market would be too small for say someone like Sony to offer it just to Leica (I do believe the B&W sensor in the M Monochrom was already a product offered for other customers for instance). I'm guessing the M Monochrom will remain pretty unique for a while. For B&W use, it's really on par with the sensor in the D800 I think (except for the color conversion advantage) due to the combination of no AA and no aliasing. But yeah, a B&W version of the Sony/ Nikon 36MP CMOS would be quite amazing.
By the way, am I dreaming or didn't Phase One introduce a B&W only MF sensor solution not long ago?
Yep, Phase One did bring a B&W sensor a year or two ago.
Seeing as how all the various companies use their own CFA design on top of Sony sensors, I don't know if it'd really be up to Sony to make the B&W sensor, although I agree that we likely won't see it anytime soon.
Found info on the Phase One Achromatic+. 39MP with the highest resolution of any Phase One back it would appear, even more than the IQ180. Of course, this Phase One is around $43,000, making the Leica M Monochrom look like a bargain.
Noth'n like a range finder for the streets and I've been shooting seeing so much in B&W the past few years and the fact it DOES'T have all the stuff I don't want on it that I'm sure the M10 is going to have its a good fit for me. Now if I can get my hands on it before next year I'll be happy.
airfrogusmc wrote:
Noth'n like a range finder for the streets and I've been shooting seeing so much in B&W the past few years and the fact it DOES'T have all the stuff I don't want on it that I'm sure the M10 is going to have its a good fit for me. Now if I can get my hands on it before next year I'll be happy.
The color channel control thing is something I'm interested about learning more from M9 Monochrom users. Are you planning on using filters?
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Found info on the Phase One Achromatic+. 39MP with the highest resolution of any Phase One back it would appear, even more than the IQ180. Of course, this Phase One is around $43,000, making the Leica M Monochrom look like a bargain.
These are made on order, supposedly hand picked pieces (need to have really near-perfect sensor as you dont do any de-bayering so remapping too much isnt exactly option). Plus it has custom FW.
Sure its pricey but photos from that, especially coupled with some Zeiss lens..
douglasf13 wrote:
The color channel control thing is something I'm interested about learning more from M9 Monochrom users. Are you planning on using filters?
Yeah I will when shooting things that have skies in them or if I'm trying to pull out a certain color. I will use the monochrome mostly for my personal street work and candids. I'm not a big landscape shooter though I have done a fair amount of zone system, large format, landscape work when I was a lot younger.
Also sold the medium format 500 C/Ms several years ago.
The M Monochrome is a good fit for the work I'm doing at this point in my life.
rscheffler wrote:
...Regarding the MM: having only had the chance to try a few of the publicly posted DNG files, I was impressed with how durable those seemed to be. I could push them very, very aggressively and they still looked very good. The amount that can be extracted from shadow areas, all the way down to nearly black, was amazing. I have not experienced anything like it, either analog or digital.
Same general conclusion as mine. Using the new Black Slider agressively in Lightroom 4 (as suggested by fotogarfz - Marc on LUF) as well as lifting shadow and mid-tone values, I found that I can get the hight contrast look that I want with deep, rich blacks while maintaining good mid-tones. This is something that I have been able to do with film in the past but not with any digital camera other than the M-Monochrom, including with the M8 and M9.
I'll be in Paris for a few days next week and hope I can buy an M-Monochrom for pickup on 24-25 July, when I come through Paris again on the way back to Bangkok, but am not optimistic that this will work out; and I won't get to Paris again until October.
