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Archive 2012 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty
  
 
mountainrivera
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Either someone at UPS or the buyer is a thief and I am not sure on whose side ebay will rule since the buyer opend a "not as described case" against me. The dispute centers around a 1d mark iv sold on ebay and the buyer has accused me of shipping an empty camera box. He said the shipping box came with the canon camera box but that the camera and two batteries were removed while other accessories were there. The box was dropped off at the UPS store and they weighed it and printed out an electronic receipt that is produced with the actual weight of the box as it sat on the scale. The weight was 8.25 lbs and obviously an empty box does not weigh 8.25 lbs. he buyer said the box felt light when he received it. I have been in contact with the buyer and we called UPS to open an investigation. They said they would send someone to the buyer's house and inspect the box. I am not hopeful as it seems like it's a case of "he said, she said". If someone at UPS did steal the camera I would think they would also take the camera box and other accessories. One other thing to note is that the buyer originally asked me to ship to an unconfirmed address but I refused and shipped to his home address. In all fairness the buyer has a long ebay history and has sold some gear worth several hundred $$. I am concerned that I am going to be charged back and have to eat $3800!! Any advice appreciated.


Jun 21, 2012 at 03:07 AM
aborr
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


I would expect that the issue is now between UPS and the recipient. I don't think that the buyer has any claim against you. UPS is a licensed Common Carrier and would be responsible for any losses that happened after they accepted the parcel. It seems to me that it would be difficult for UPS to argue that they never received 8.25 lbs of "stuff" from you, as they issued you a hard copy receipt for an 8.25 lb package.

You have proof that the correct amount of "stuff" was consigned to UPS, and proof from UPS that they delivered the package to the buyer. If something happened in the middle, it either happned when UPS had the package, or after UPS delivered it. In either case, it was beyond your control and responsibility.



Jun 21, 2012 at 03:33 AM
mountainrivera
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Thnx. The transaction was on eBay. The buyer opened a not as described case and from what I've read these do not end well for the seller. He is a long time ebay member and has sold camera gear. I even spoke to him so I know he is a photog and not just a scammer looking to steal anything of value. However there are a couple of flags I didn't mention in my op. when we spoke he was very paranoid about my putting an invoice in the box or marking it as such to flag it as a high value item. He also signed for it at noon but did not call me ranting until 5 pm. I know eBay will require that he file a police report due to the value of the item. This is very trying to say the least.


Jun 21, 2012 at 11:04 AM
aborr
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


I think that claiming an item was not as advertised is quite different from claiming that it was never delivered. That said, I still have a lot of sympathy for both you and the buyer. It doesn't seem to me that either of you was expecting anything other than a simple, honest transaction.


Jun 21, 2012 at 11:34 AM
mlife
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Yeah, PayPal is not really your "pal".... I've stopped selling large items on ebay due to paypals propensity to just satisfy the buyer. They will likely tell you that as the seller it is your responsibility to send the item (if over $250) via signature confirmation, to a confirmed address and with insurance. They reason they do this is that in their eyes, YOU are responsible for the package until it is delivered to your customer. In the even the item is stolen, it is your responsibility to file the insurance claim with the carrier as you are the one that paid for the insurance. They will give the buyer their money back and then leave you to deal with UPS.


Not sure if this would even work, but if the camera doesn't turn up try calling Canon. You being the last owner, let them know the camera was stolen and see if they can enter the serial number into to their system as stolen in the event it is ever sent in for repair or cleaning. Maybe that's not even something they do but could be worth your time to try ?



Jun 21, 2012 at 11:43 AM
tonyespofoto
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


I hope that you purchased insurance for $3800.00 from UPS. If so, you are off the hook. UPS will reimburse you. Otherwise, the most they are liable for is $100.00. I'm pretty sure this is in the fine print on the reverse of the tracking label you filled out when shipping. Shipping to a confirmed address is also important. But insurance is true peace of mind. I recall, back in the days of film, I shipped a job worth about 7500 to the lab. I insured it, and it took 2 weeks to get there. I was told that it passed, hand-to-hand, from 1 UPS boss to another, all along the route and each one had to sign for it. I was told this after I called the lab wondering where my pictures were, and they hadn't even received the film yet. Then I called UPS, scared out of my wits (there was no possibility of a re-shoot) and they told me the story. I could see that they would take no chances with valuable, insured items. By the way, you may get some relief from either your homeowners' or camera equipment policies. If the insurance was still in force on either policy, the loss is their problem, minus your deductible. Best of luck to you!!


Jun 21, 2012 at 04:11 PM
Binh Ly
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


tonyespofoto wrote:
I hope that you purchased insurance for $3800.00 from UPS.


+1! Not only this, I would take detailed pictures of the camera right before I seal that shipping box. Take detailed pictures of the box and with it on the scale. And I would fully insure it and require signature confirmation.

If you didn't do any of this, good luck to you buddy!



Jun 21, 2012 at 04:18 PM
mountainrivera
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Thanks for the advice. Thankfully I did everything by the book. I have spoken to the buyer several times today and cooler heads are prevailing. I am convinced he is a good guy. He has the Box and UPS will pick it up tomorrow for inspection. He took detailed pics and the box was definitely tampered with from the bottom. The thief took the camera battery and charger and sealed the canon box and inner brown box that holds the camera back into the shipping box. That puzzles me cuz if they are going to steal the camera why not take the whole box and all accessories. If I ever get the chance I'd take the box left behind and shove it up his ass and say, "You forgot something buddy." Looks like UPS has to make this one right.


Jun 21, 2012 at 09:47 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


mountainrivera wrote:
... If I ever get the chance I'd take the box left behind and ...say, "You forgot something buddy."


Shades of Independence Day!

Anyway, good luck with this.



Jun 21, 2012 at 10:16 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


tonyespofoto wrote:
I hope that you purchased insurance for $3800.00 from UPS. If so, you are off the hook. UPS will reimburse you. Otherwise, the most they are liable for is $100.00. I'm pretty sure this is in the fine print on the reverse of the tracking label you filled out when shipping. Shipping to a confirmed address is also important. But insurance is true peace of mind. I recall, back in the days of film, I shipped a job worth about 7500 to the lab. I insured it, and it took 2 weeks to get there. I was told that it
...Show more

YES!..If you didnot buy the added insurance the most you will get is $100!!!! Been there!!!!
If you filled out the label then it was on the "step-by-step" process in the shipping label process. It is also on your receipt.
Yeah the insurance factors a big expense into one's costs, buying or selling, but it will prevent the heartbreak of loosing all but $100 of your costs.
This is something many buyers and sellers here on FM sort of overlook!
It is rare that this happens BUT it does!!
Good luck!
Dan



Jun 23, 2012 at 05:52 PM
 

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mountainrivera
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


mdbassman wrote:
YES!..If you didnot buy the added insurance the most you will get is $100!!!! Been there!!!!
If you filled out the label then it was on the "step-by-step" process in the shipping label process. It is also on your receipt.
Yeah the insurance factors a big expense into one's costs, buying or selling, but it will prevent the heartbreak of loosing all but $100 of your costs.
This is something many buyers and sellers here on FM sort of overlook!
It is rare that this happens BUT it does!!
Good luck!
Dan


Yes I did buy insurance. Interestingly that may be what flagged the item. Because it was well over $3k, UPS required that a separate form be signed by the driver that picks up the box. I also believe they segregate the higher value items from the rest so that is like putting a neon sign on it. If I didn't insure it it probably gets there. That being said, I will never cut corners on insurance again. I usually do.



Jun 23, 2012 at 10:32 PM
unclechuck
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Your analysis that a thief would take the box & contents makes perfect sense --- so I'm thinking the Buyer is suspect

A couple points:

what kind of gear does the buyer sell on eBay?

check his feedback as a buyer: What's he buying lately?

IF this does go to Paypal I'd have two questions for them

1. What are the buyers other user eBay ID's? (active and inactive)

2. How many Paypal claims has he filed on this (current) user ID as well as any others?

Good Luck and keep us posted!



Jun 23, 2012 at 11:19 PM
heavyj
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


My experience:

I sold a Canon 7D. When it arrived (Tracking number and insurance) I asked the buyer to leave a positive review when he confirmed everything is as it was.

A couple days pass and he says he has not received the package. Long story short: I call all the postal services in the U.K from Japan and right down to the very small post office in the buyers town get the driver that delivered it.

The buyer had my Paypal account frozen and did not try to communicate with me. He was a scammer. Paypal saw all my documentation and released my funds the same day. I offered to help the buyer figure things out, assuming he wasn't a scammer. No response from him ever since.

So...insurance is your friend. Paypal...well, I guess it depends on how much evidence you have to support your version. In Japan I got an operator within minutes of calling. 20 or 30 minutes pass, somebody said "He's good." and I've got my money. It pays to be careful. Never again will I sell anything over 1000USD on ebay.



Jun 24, 2012 at 12:02 PM
skibum5
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


heavyj wrote:
My experience:

I sold a Canon 7D. When it arrived (Tracking number and insurance) I asked the buyer to leave a positive review when he confirmed everything is as it was.

A couple days pass and he says he has not received the package. Long story short: I call all the postal services in the U.K from Japan and right down to the very small post office in the buyers town get the driver that delivered it.

The buyer had my Paypal account frozen and did not try to communicate with me. He was a scammer. Paypal saw all my documentation and released
...Show more

You were lucky, PayPal tends to way favor the buyer.



Jun 26, 2012 at 07:17 AM
Bullseye5d2
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


mountainrivera wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Thankfully I did everything by the book. I have spoken to the buyer several times today and cooler heads are prevailing. I am convinced he is a good guy. He has the Box and UPS will pick it up tomorrow for inspection. He took detailed pics and the box was definitely tampered with from the bottom. The thief took the camera battery and charger and sealed the canon box and inner brown box that holds the camera back into the shipping box. That puzzles me cuz if they are going to steal the camera why not
...Show more


If he had taken the whole thing and that the package had mysteriously "disappeared", the thief would have been the last person to be in contact with the package. Easy to track back to the thief since all packages are scanned and tracked eletronically.

By only removing parts of the contents, and letting the rest of the box go on its normal way, now you get a bunch of new ups employees having been in contact with the package, who know who opened it up along the way?


And for the OP, I'm pretty sure you're safe as long as you keep that shipping ticket with the weight on it.



Jun 26, 2012 at 03:55 PM
RJKphoto
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


My faith in human nature is considerably less rosy, my guess is that the recipient is the culprit. Ups has cameras in all its sort facilities, and that leaves the drivers. Since they can be directly connected to the package they seem less likely candidates for the crime. The recipient however has no way to prove anything, and is depending on either UPS or PayPal to get his money back, while keeping the camera too. Everybody loses.


Jun 27, 2012 at 01:43 AM
mountainrivera
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Update. UPS inspected the package. The buyer had arranged to have it inspected and UPS missed two appointments. The initial observation by UPS (as per the buyer) is the box was tampered with. At this point it looks like UPS will honor the claim. I have been in close contact with the buyer over the last few days. He has been a member of ebay for about 10 years and he has sold camera gear there. We chatted before the deal was finalized and he definitely is a shooter. I am 99.9999% sure he did not pull a fast one. Hopefully the thief, lowlife, scumbag etc. will get what they deserve. Karma is a bitch!!


Jun 27, 2012 at 11:21 PM
skibum5
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


mountainrivera wrote:
Update. UPS inspected the package. The buyer had arranged to have it inspected and UPS missed two appointments. The initial observation by UPS (as per the buyer) is the box was tampered with. At this point it looks like UPS will honor the claim. I have been in close contact with the buyer over the last few days. He has been a member of ebay for about 10 years and he has sold camera gear there. We chatted before the deal was finalized and he definitely is a shooter. I am 99.9999% sure he did not pull a fast one.
...Show more

Glad to hear you will likely come out OK. I've heard UPS claims can be tricky so it's good that it appears to be going well. I once received a box utterly mashed in and the contents smashed and I eventually heard that the seller never did end up getting a refund from UPS, not even for the shipping and insurance fees!!!!! (I guess his packing was slightly on the weak side, but still.)



Jun 29, 2012 at 07:29 PM
mountainrivera
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Update to the nightmare. UPS did determine the box was tampered with and I was told by their claims department that the claim would be honored - so far so good. A few days later I received a call stating that I would only be receiving $1,000 since I used the UPS Store to ship the item and that they are not UPS but a 3rd party. Apparently there is a 38 page document, one of many voluminous PDF documents, available through a tiny Terms and Conditions" link (about 6 font) at the bottom of their web site that supports this. It is expected that all customers read through al of them as, in their term, this is my contract with them.

That being said, part of my claim papers includes a signed receipt from a UPS driver which is required by them for insurance coverage for such a high value item. Short story is that same piece of paper would be in force if I had the box picked up from my home but is not because it was signed at a UPS Store. In my opinion, it places the camera with them and none of the drones I spoke to are taking into account the fact that it was determined that a UPS employee robbed the camera and that they clearly are responsible. I probably spent 2 hours on the phone winding my way through their organization escalating the issue to "management" staff that only provide first names and do know know or want to disclose a senior executive's contact info. My next step is to send a letter to Scott Davis CEO and other members of the senior management team. Someone there needs to apply common sense and do what is right!




Jul 21, 2012 at 10:36 AM
Taoguy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sold 1d IV - Buyer Claims box is Empty


Take them to small claims court, I've done so twice in the past 5 years, not UPS, but another vendor that mishandled a delivery and small courts view favorable to the consumer if your story is documented and correct. I won both my cases and all I wanted was my actual $ lost, not time involved etc.

If you can get this resolved through the Customer Service channels you will one of few.

I found out later that most of these insurance claims are not paid in full or at all. I'm not an attorney, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Express this year

Good luck



Jul 21, 2012 at 01:02 PM
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