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Archive 2012 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N

  
 
warjoe
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


I have just bought a secondhand MK2n i have attached to photos taken within minutes of each other one is taken 0 exposure compensation in AV mode single point AF in center the other i had to dial in 1 1/3 for correct exposure. Is there a problem with the metering ?? exif data should be in photos.

I have shot a1dmk2 for four years and never had much more than 2/3 ev + or - so dialing in 1 1/3 ev adjustment seems a bit much.

What camera metered



After dialing in 1 1/3 ev



Warren

Edited on May 08, 2012 at 02:48 PM · View previous versions



May 08, 2012 at 02:48 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Did you or the previous user reset the CF's ? The focus screen may not be the correct one or the setting in the cf's may not correspond with the screen installed in the camera.
That would change the metering. And it's not a linea offset so it may have a different amount of ev in different lighting conditions.

Just a thought.

But I will also say that my mk2n underexposed compared to my 7D . Not by as much as you have it but the diffence for me is about 1/2 to 2/3rds of a stop. But then I think my 7D is slightly over as well . So I would say I could meet both my bodies in the middle.



May 08, 2012 at 08:27 AM
mt-m
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


There's no EXIF in the images. What metering mode was used?


May 08, 2012 at 09:07 AM
PhotoTeacher
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Looks like it may have spot metered on the reflections in the water, try a more evenly lit subject.


May 08, 2012 at 09:26 AM
warjoe
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


First photo the under exposed one exif data

Taken on May 7, 2012 at 2.15pm PDT (edit)
Posted to Flickr May 7, 2012 at 12.02PM PDT (edit)
Exif data

Camera Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Exposure 0.001 sec (1/2000)
Aperture f/4.5
Focal Length 300 mm
ISO Speed 250
Exposure Bias +1/3 EV
Flash Off, Did not fire
X-Resolution 240 dpi
Y-Resolution 240 dpi
Date and Time (Modified) 2012:05:07 20:02:32
Copyright (C) warren mcconnaughie
Exposure Program Aperture-priority AE
Date and Time (Original) 2012:05:07 14:15:34+01:00
Date and Time (Digitized) 2012:05:07 14:15:34
Max Aperture Value 2.8
Metering Mode Multi-segment
Focal Plane X-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Focal Plane Y-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Custom Rendered Normal
Exposure Mode Auto
White Balance Manual
Scene Capture Type Standard
Compression JPEG (old-style)
Copyright Flag True
Keywords "warren mcconnaughie" www.industryimage.com
By-line Warren McConnaughie
Copyright Notice © warren mcconnaughie
Viewing Conditions Illuminant Type D50
Measurement Observer CIE 1931
Measurement Flare 0.999%
Measurement Illuminant D65
XMPToolkit Adobe XMP Core 4.2-c020 1.124078, Tue Sep 11 2007 23:21:40
Creator Tool Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
Lens EF300mm f/2.8L USM
Lens ID 136
Image Number 11399
Flash Compensation 0
Marked True
Legacy IPTCDigest CA0D7A791DF99E791BA03C2B174C74B8
Creator Warren McConnaughie
Rights © warren mcconnaughie
Subject warren mcconnaughie
Creator Work Email [email protected]
Creator Work URL www.industryimage.com
Color Transform YCbCr
Flash Return No return detection
Flash Mode Off
Flash Function False
Flash Red Eye Mode


Second one i corrected with 1 1/3 ev

Dates

Taken on May 7, 2012 at 2.15pm PDT (edit)
Posted to Flickr May 7, 2012 at 12.02PM PDT (edit)
Exif data

Camera Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Exposure 0.001 sec (1/800)
Aperture f/4.5
Focal Length 300 mm
ISO Speed 250
Exposure Bias +4/3 EV
Flash Off, Did not fire
X-Resolution 240 dpi
Y-Resolution 240 dpi
Date and Time (Modified) 2012:05:07 20:02:34
Copyright (C) warren mcconnaughie
Exposure Program Aperture-priority AE
Sensitivity Type Unknown
Date and Time (Original) 2012:05:07 14:15:42+01:00
Date and Time (Digitized) 2012:05:07 14:15:42
Max Aperture Value 2.8
Metering Mode Multi-segment
Focal Plane X-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Focal Plane Y-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Custom Rendered Normal
Exposure Mode Auto
White Balance Manual
Scene Capture Type Standard
Serial Number 424103
Lens Info 300mm f/?
Lens Model EF300mm f/2.8L USM
Compression JPEG (old-style)
Copyright Flag True
Keywords "warren mcconnaughie" www.industryimage.com
By-line Warren McConnaughie
Copyright Notice © warren mcconnaughie
Viewing Conditions Illuminant Type D50
Measurement Observer CIE 1931
Measurement Flare 0.999%
Measurement Illuminant D65
XMPToolkit Adobe XMP Core 4.2-c020 1.124078, Tue Sep 11 2007 23:21:40
Creator Tool Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
Lens EF300mm f/2.8L USM
Lens ID 136
Image Number 11400
Flash Compensation 0
Marked True
Legacy IPTCDigest CA0D7A791DF99E791BA03C2B174C74B8
Creator Warren McConnaughie
Rights © warren mcconnaughie
Subject warren mcconnaughie
Creator Work Email [email protected]
Creator Work URL www.industryimage.com
Color Transform YCbCr
Flash Return No return detection
Flash Mode Off
Flash Function False
Flash Red Eye Mode False



May 08, 2012 at 09:34 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


This is a very bad scene to use for evaluting your camera's metering.

Given the large amount of highly reflective water in your scene (akin to shooting snow), a properly working meter will probably render your highlights (dominating the scene) as middle gray (or closer to it) anyway ... variably so depending on metering mode used.

I'd suggest repeating your test using a more controlled subject (i.e. gray card, etc.), or at least a subject that doesn't have such a strong highlight weighting to it. For scenes like this, the EC isn't indicative of your metering being errant ... it is simply to compensate for the fact that you are metering off of a scene that does not "average" to middle gray (as your meter assumes the "average" scene to be). I realize that you were using "matrix" mode, but the principle still applies that the camera was expecting the scene to "match" something it was programmed for ... and the scene presented a "mismatch", so it got fooled.

Outdoors, I'll just point my lens at a dry patch of green grass to meter off of (assuming same lighting conditions) when I know I"m shooting into a "non-average" scene. That will "clue me" as to what exposure to use. I also, may use an incident meter or the Sunny 16 rule (modified to Sunny 13) for a "cross-check" ... and of course, there is always good old fashioned bracketing.

Anyway ... I wouldn't worry at all about your camera's metering based on it's response to metering this particular scene. I would have expected it to be underexposed, due to the high reflectivity and particularly with a large expanse of it in the center of your composition.

If you shoot a sheet of "white paper" filling your frame ... and your camera meters it such that it comes out "middle gray" ... your meter is doing its job just fine.
Likewise, if you shoot a sheet of "black paper" filling your frame ... and your camera meters it such that it comes out as "middle gray" ... your meter is doing its job just fine.

The camera doesn't know what you are pointing it at (white vs. black) ... it only is programmed to assume that you are pointing it at a scene that approximates middle gray, and provides you with an exposure that will help you achieve that middle gray. From the exercise of shooting an "all white" scene vs. an "all black" scene and seeing that the camera yields the same histogram @ middle gray, we can realize that the camera's meter is doing its job ... trying to place things in the middle. When we KNOW (the camera doesn't know) that we are shooting a scene that has values that are a significant departure from "middle" ... that's when the use of EC comes into play ... i.e. us "telling" the camera that it is NOT looking at an "average" scene.

BTW ... I use both a 1D MK II and a 1D MK II N ... interchangeably without any consideration for EC between bodies. Admittedly, I've never been compelled to compare them against each other, but I think the main issue here is simply the scene doesn't fit into the programming of the meter and it "got fooled". While "middle gray" is important, it is the "gray" matter that is in the "middle" of our ears that can be of even more value than the camera's meter. Sometimes, you just have to "out-think" your camera, rather than expect it to be smarter than you are ... it isn't.

Here's a link that compares the ISO of the II vs. the II N. Both are slightly under the OEM rating (hence my modified Sunny 13 rule), the II N just a smidgeon more so, but certainly not anything that would suggest the difference you're asking about.

DXOMark II v. IIN ISO
(Click on "measurements" tab ... mouse-over orange vs. red circles on graph)

HTH



May 08, 2012 at 09:39 AM
warjoe
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Thanks for that . I have done a few more tests shooting white paper and have found that as shutter speed rises with me changing the aperture the picture metering gets worse sample photos below.
exif data

Taken on May 8, 2012 at 6.29pm PDT (edit)
Posted to Flickr May 8, 2012 at 11.12AM PDT (edit)
Exif data

Camera Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
Exposure 1/5000 sec
Aperture f/3.5
Focal Length 135 mm
ISO Speed 200
Exposure Bias 0 EV
Flash Off, Did not fire
X-Resolution 240 dpi
Y-Resolution 240 dpi
Date and Time (Modified) 2012:05:08 19:13:29
Copyright (C) warren mcconnaughie
Exposure Program Aperture-priority AE
Date and Time (Original) 2012:05:08 18:29:48+01:00
Date and Time (Digitized) 2012:05:08 18:29:48
Max Aperture Value 2.0
Metering Mode Multi-segment
Focal Plane X-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Focal Plane Y-Resolution 3098.14323607427 dpi
Custom Rendered Normal
Exposure Mode Auto
White Balance Manual
Scene Capture Type Standard
Compression JPEG (old-style)
Copyright Flag True
Keywords "warren mcconnaughie" www.industryimage.com
By-line Warren McConnaughie
Copyright Notice © warren mcconnaughie
Viewing Conditions Illuminant Type D50
Measurement Observer CIE 1931
Measurement Flare 0.999%
Measurement Illuminant D65
XMPToolkit Adobe XMP Core 4.2-c020 1.124078, Tue Sep 11 2007 23:21:40
Creator Tool Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
Lens EF135mm f/2L USM
Lens ID 174
Image Number 11723
Flash Compensation 0
Marked True
Legacy IPTCDigest CA0D7A791DF99E791BA03C2B174C74B8
Creator Warren McConnaughie
Rights © warren mcconnaughie
Subject warren mcconnaughie
Creator Work Email [email protected]
Creator Work URL www.industryimage.com
Color Transform YCbCr
Flash Return No return detection
Flash Mode Off
Flash Function False
Flash Red Eye Mode False

Taken at 1/5000 f3.5


Taken at 1/2500 f5


Taken at 1/1250 f7.1



Im just wondering does it need a new shutter ?? shame this one only has 9k on it.


Warren


Edited on May 08, 2012 at 02:31 PM · View previous versions



May 08, 2012 at 01:19 PM
trueimage
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Interested in these findings, I just got a new to me 1d2n


May 08, 2012 at 02:28 PM
Rodney O
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


OP,

You've set it to manual white balance. what did you use to establish the manual white balance?

Also have you gone thru the camera and reset all the Cfn's etc to factory defaults? And then set them to the values you are used to using? And checked that the camera correctly stored your settings?

Getting that black image at 1/5000 for f 3.5 makes me think of the inside of a lens cap more than a white sheet of paper? Can you get the expected images if you make EC adjustments with the white paper too?

And do you see the same thing for different AE modes? And does it occur for all you lenses with this body? Not sure I have an answer but lots of variables to sort thru.

hth
Rodney



May 08, 2012 at 03:18 PM
warjoe
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Rodney O wrote:
OP,

You've set it to manual white balance. what did you use to establish the manual white balance?

Also have you gone thru the camera and reset all the Cfn's etc to factory defaults? And then set them to the values you are used to using? And checked that the camera correctly stored your settings?

Getting that black image at 1/5000 for f 3.5 makes me think of the inside of a lens cap more than a white sheet of paper? Can you get the expected images if you make EC adjustments with the white paper too?

And do you see the
...Show more

Ok Rodney

Yes cleared all Cfn's and Pfn's so it should be back to factory setting. I does this only at higher shutter speeds above 1/1000s with all lens that its my 300f2.8 and my 135f2. I can adjust EC which reduces shutter speed and cures the problem. but it takes 1-2 stops . Its the same all modes of AE. It sames as if the shutter is moving too fast or metering is telling it the wrong shutter speed.

Warren


Warren



May 08, 2012 at 03:53 PM
Rodney O
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Warren,

Ok so now you're down to almost 2 variables. But what did you set the WB manually to? How did you set it? And have you tried just letting it use a "daylight" WB? Plus it might be worth trying different white balance settings, like tungsten etc etc. Again just looking for differences.

Then can you get any different results for different AE modes? or similar but slightly different? And what do you get when you do a full manual mode. I would run thru a number of variables here. Some times trying to get a good shot & others just trying the "mechanics & electronics of the camera system. And when using M try forcing the shutter speed up while leaving Aperture & iso constant.

Then if you can make it do the same thing when the AE electronics is "out of the picture" you're getting closer to nailing it as a shutter or second curtain issue.

With those trials in hand, it may be time to reject the used camera or contact Canon. Since they're still servicing 20D's, I'd guess they are still doing 1Dmk2 N's also.

hth
Rodney

And just thought of this. Is the firmware up to date on that body?



May 08, 2012 at 04:57 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Hmmm ... time to start eliminating variables.

I'd grab a different lens, manual aperture and set shutter speed manually using base ISO.

Then I'd make manual reciprocal adjustments ... doing so manually (physically via aperture ring), so to take the meter and electronic aperture reporting out of the equation and just testing the shutter speed.




May 08, 2012 at 06:42 PM
Monito
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


warjoe wrote:
I have just bought a secondhand MK2n i have attached to photos taken within minutes of each other one is taken 0 exposure compensation in AV mode single point AF in center the other i had to dial in 1 1/3 for correct exposure. Is there a problem with the metering ?? exif data should be in photos.

I have shot a1dmk2 for four years and never had much more than 2/3 ev + or - so dialing in 1 1/3 ev adjustment seems a bit much.

What camera metered

What the camera metered

After dialing in 1 1/3 ev

After dialing in 1
...Show more

It's neither metering nor shutter problem. Sorry, but it is operator error.

The camera did the right thing: tried to render the metered area as middle gray. Since it should be represented brighter than that, as proven by your second shot, the meter moved the bright tones down to middle gray. It has no way of knowing that they should be brighter. The tones dominated the picture and therefore the metering.

Meters always try to make what they see into middle gray tones (or middle tones in the case of colour). If it is center-weighted, it makes the center middle gray. If it is averaged, it makes the average middle gray.

Thus you needed to provide compensation at the time of exposure, either through exposure compensation in automatic modes or by dialing it up in Manual mode. It takes persistent vigilance to watch for such situations. Chimping is allowed.

The reason so much compensation was needed was because the angle of the reflective surface is channeling a lot of reflected light toward the camera. It is almost mirror-like for the gray sky.




May 08, 2012 at 08:07 PM
warjoe
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Monito wrote:
It's neither metering nor shutter problem. Sorry, but it is operator error.

The camera did the right thing: tried to render the metered area as middle gray. Since it should be represented brighter than that, as proven by your second shot, the meter moved the bright tones down to middle gray. It has no way of knowing that they should be brighter. The tones dominated the picture and therefore the metering.

Meters always try to make what they see into middle gray tones (or middle tones in the case of colour). If it is center-weighted, it makes the center middle gray. If
...Show more

Hi Monito , i understand what your saying but if you look at the other images of white paper why does it not meter to grey at the higher shutter speeds but does at the lower. I test my Mk2 and it does. Below 1/1000s all is fine, strange to me.

Warren



May 09, 2012 at 02:58 AM
Monito
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


warjoe wrote:
if you look at the other images of white paper why does it not meter to grey at the higher shutter speeds but does at the lower. I test my Mk2 and it does. Below 1/1000s all is fine, strange to me.


Yes, those photos do look like a shutter problem. Sorry I missed that the first time round.

Have you eliminated the lens as a factor? You used a different lens (300 mm) for the first image than the paper tests (135mm). Have you tried that same test with two lenses (shoot the test in one session with two lenses)?

What was your lighting for the paper test? I hope it wasn't fluorescent. A steady continuous light source is needed. Fluourescent cycles, usually at power cycle rates.

If different lenses yield similar results, then it would seem to be a shutter problem because the three paper photos have nominal EVs that should render the same pixel values. Parameters like white balance will not have such a dramatic effect.

It's an odd failure mode since it is as if the faster shutter speed is too fast, rather than too slow. I wonder if the mirror is slow in getting out of the way. However, it would be unlikely to be so even, and mirror problems like that are usually related to problems with the shutter mechanism and are repaired at the same time or solved by the same repair.

Have you done the identical test with a second camera body at the same time?



May 09, 2012 at 05:27 AM
warjoe
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Monito wrote:
Yes, those photos do look like a shutter problem. Sorry I missed that the first time round.

Have you eliminated the lens as a factor? You used a different lens (300 mm) for the first image than the paper tests (135mm). Have you tried that same test with two lenses (shoot the test in one session with two lenses)?

What was your lighting for the paper test? I hope it wasn't fluorescent. A steady continuous light source is needed. Fluourescent cycles, usually at power cycle rates.

If different lenses yield similar results, then it would seem to be a shutter problem because the
...Show more

Both lens are the same all paper photos where taken outside, and my mk2 produces good grey photos even at 1/5000 same settings.

Maybe time to phone canon.

Warren



May 09, 2012 at 06:01 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


To isolate it as a shutter problem do the test in M mode on the camera not Av and totally eliminate the variable of the metering by changing exposure on the lens in even stops (f/2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22 ) with corresponding doubling of whatever shutter is needed for middle gray rendering of the target at f/2.
Exposure time on sensor at higher indicated speeds is a function of latency between curtains of the shutter (i.e. the width of the moving slit created between them). The curtains move at the same speed over the sensor at all indicated shutter speeds and it's the timing of the release of the 2nd curtain is what controls the gap between the moving curtains and with it exposure. The decrease in exposure with increased indicated shutter time could be caused by the 2nd curtain starting to close too soon. That would also explain way exposure gets worse as speeds increase. But the problem could also be the 1st curtain getting slowed down and the second functioning normally catching up to it.

In light of that you might want to re-test starting with a baseline shutter speed below 1/200th where the curtain gap isn't as critical a variable then compare the faster indicated speeds to that baseline.

Below flash sync speed there is no moving slit. The first curtain opens, the sensor is exposed completely (so the flash burst can expose all of it) and then the second curtain closes. If you have a manual flash you can connect to the PC socket you might also try some tests with flash at and higher than sync speed.

If there is a problem with the 1st curtain lagging you should see uneven exposure at sync speed across an evenly lit target in the direction of travel of the curtain (vertical in landscape mode). Even if shutter is nominal you will start to see the shadow of the curtains and the gap at indicated speeds higher than x-sync. The camera limits shutter to x-sync when hot shoe flash is attached. thus the need to connect flash to PC socket and use Manual mode on camera to adjust shutter and aperture.

As shutter speed decreases by 1/2 you should expect the physical gap between the curtains frozen by the flash duration to also decrease in width by 1/2. If it doesn't it would confirm the hanging curtain theory.




May 09, 2012 at 06:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


+@ lagging first curtain (shortened gap between first & second) ... appearing as symptom @ shutter too fast.

As to the metering potential ... have you tried to shoot in Shutter Priority? Shoot in shutter priority and set your shutter speed below your problem area (i.e. 1/400, 1/200, 1/100 etc.) ... see how your meter handles things then. If your meter is consistently putting your test shots @ middle gray as it should various (slower) speeds, then it will restore confidence that your meter is just fine (my expectation). Then run the same shutter priority mode tests @ your higher speeds and you'll be able to see where it starts "going south" on you.

From that you'll know that you can confidently shoot Shutter Priority up to a given speed with good metering and no need for EC ... as EC has only been serving to dial in a slower shutter speed for you (in this scenario) rather than provide you with your proper exposure for a non-standard scene. By shooting in Tv, (vs. Av or Auto), you will be keeping control of your camera, such that it won't be trying to use a shutter speed with a gap so narrow that the 1st curtain lag is impacting the exposure. Then, any metering adjustments the camera makes will be required to be made via your lens aperture, retaining your exposure accuracy as indicated by the camera's metering. Your use of EC can then resume "normal" EC stuff vs. over-compensation for functional issue.

I realize that shooting Tv may not be your preference, but as a means of preventing a "missed shot" due to the issue it could be a "work-around" strategy for now. You could also incoporate your "tested" EC values to coincide with your Tv ... i.e. 1/2500 Tv with +1 EC (etc.) to open up your aperture more to compensate for the "too fast" shutter for when you do need to shoot above your "safe zone" ... rather than applying a "global" EC @ Auto or Av that would then have you overexposing on those shots with shutter speeds below the problem area.


You mentioned using Auto mode and also the issue mostly with your longer glass ... it would stand to reason that the Auto program is trying to set a higher shutter speed (now in your problem area) to contend with the longer FL for the purpose of reducing camera shake/blur. If you can test shoot your long glass at slower shutter speeeds in Tv or M (tripod if needed), then you can also restore confidence that it isn't in your lens communications, but simply the curtain lag when you are at those higher speeds that Auto is trying to put you at.

FYI ... I do RCFA (root cause failure analysis), so there is a "method to my madness" for triangulating and separating out symptoms vs. variables. You presented a few different scenarios ... and most likely it is only one issue revealing itself in different forms at different times, and the question becomes "why" vs. "why not". For that reason, I like to not only find the root cause, but also "put to rest" the other contenders so they don't stick in the back of your mind as straggling possiblities ... i.e. good to have confidence that your "other" variables don't have any contributing issues.

Anyway ... my money is on 1st curtain and using Tv to restrict shutter speed such that you can confidently shoot with camera metering (till you can get it properly resolved for all speeds).

HTH





May 09, 2012 at 07:39 AM
warjoe
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Thanks lads for all your effort in your replies. Think i will do a bit more testing but it will have to go to canon for a repair in the long term.

Many thanks

Warren



May 09, 2012 at 10:41 AM
warjoe
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Is this a metering or shutter problem in my Mk2N


Well got news for canon on the fix. They say they need to re-program metering cells and shutter speeds. No parts needed.

Warren




May 17, 2012 at 09:35 AM
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