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unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #1 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts Update: A recent review of Canon 100-400 Never owned or bought one. Have no idea at all about this lens. (original post) Recently got a Canon 15-85 from Gregg Hill here on FM: it's absolutely what reviewers said --- sharp and quick with excellent color . I went to post a review but found two drive-bys with "0" posts took a dump on the lens. http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=408&sort=4&cat=27&page=1 How do two guys with NO posts suddenly, within a week, post bad reviews on an otherwise very well reviewed lens? Your thoughts on motive? Suggestions? Canon 100-400 Edited on Jul 10, 2012 at 02:52 PM · View previous versions Apr 10, 2012 at 11:29 PM

Monito Offline • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #2 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts unclechuck wrote: How do two guys with NO posts suddenly, within a week, post bad reviews on an otherwise very well reviewed lens? Your thoughts on motive? Suggestions? A soft user got a good copy of the lens but was too clueless to know, so they signed up for two accounts just so they could sabotage Canon's bottom line, or so they think. Internet Squeaky Wheel Amplification Effect. Apr 11, 2012 at 12:29 AM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #3 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts Monito wrote so they signed up for two accounts just so they could sabotage Canon's bottom line, or so they think. Internet Squeaky Wheel Amplification Effect. Interesting theory; plausible too ... Apr 11, 2012 at 01:07 AM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #4 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts Check the 15-85 review post --- one reviewer who had no prior posts now has one --- he also has a lens for sale. May 05, 2012 at 06:57 PM

EB-1 Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #5 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts I wouldn't put much stock in FM equipment user reviews. I suppose there could be a requirement for a minimum number of posts in certain other forum categories before being allowed to post reviews or B/S as some forums have. EBH May 06, 2012 at 01:04 AM

Eyeball Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #6 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts I think you need to be careful with any site offering user reviews when there aren't many reviews. Even if the reviews are legit, there aren't enough data points to give you a solid feel of the bell-shaped curve. Also, what the OP doesn't point out is that this particular lens has three "perfect 10" reviewers with zero posts. Seems like based on that you could just as easily start a "Canon fanboys skewing the reviews" thread. May 06, 2012 at 03:25 PM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #7 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts EB-1 and Eyeball Your points are well taken. On the other hand I've learned a lot on FM by reading reviews in context --- carefully reading the info while assessing the expertise and attitude of the writer. The images posts of reviewers is an easy way to determine their credibility. To take a shortcut; to just look at FM scores and recommendations is to miss a wealth of knowledge and experience. What caught my eye was a review that trashed the 15-85 and praised the lens the reviewer listed on BS. May 06, 2012 at 03:54 PM

Fred Miranda Offline Admin Upload & Sell: On p.1 #8 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts EB-1 wrote: I wouldn't put much stock in FM equipment user reviews. I suppose there could be a requirement for a minimum number of posts in certain other forum categories before being allowed to post reviews or B/S as some forums have. EBH I noticed that as well. I will add a minimum number of posts requirement. We want to make sure whoever posts a review is an established FM member. The question is how many posts. May 06, 2012 at 05:03 PM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #9 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts Fred Miranda wrote: I noticed that as well. I will add a minimum number of posts requirement. We want to make sure whoever posts a review is an established FM member. The question is how many posts. Great idea! I'm sure you'll get suggestions from more experienced FM members --- my thought would be at least the 100 required for Red Flag. May 06, 2012 at 05:21 PM

Eyeball Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #10 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts unclechuck wrote: On the other hand I've learned a lot on FM by reading reviews in context --- carefully reading the info while assessing the expertise and attitude of the writer. The images posts of reviewers is an easy way to determine their credibility. To take a shortcut; to just look at FM scores and recommendations is to miss a wealth of knowledge and experience. Agreeed. But if that is the way you use the reviews, I'm not sure what you're complaining about. You should just ignore the reviews from the people you don't trust. unclechuck wrote: What caught my eye was a review that trashed the 15-85 and praised the lens the reviewer listed on BS. But those aren't the same lenses. In fact, if you read his review, his comment regarding the 17-55 is completely consistent with how he qualified the lens on B&S. His beef was with the 15-85. By the way, his "trashing" of the lens was giving it a 6, not a 1 or 2. Just think that should be clarified. Fred Miranda wrote: I noticed that as well. I will add a minimum number of posts requirement. We want to make sure whoever posts a review is an established FM member. The question is how many posts. Fred - It's your site and you can do whatever you feel is best for the site. Setting a minimum-post requirement for review participants is not necessarily a bad idea but I'll just mention what could be some negatives of doing that: 1. The reviews part of your site is very popular with photography enthusiasts. I was in a camera store in Mexico City a few years back and heard one of the sales people showing a potential buyer your site. I think some of these people that read the reviews are thankful and want to give back with a review of their own. That may actually be the trigger that motivates them to sign up with FM. With a minimum-post limit, you run the risk of losing that channel for new members. 2. If you put a minimum-post limit that is fairly low (5-10, for example), then you may still get people trying to "game" the ratings but they will now start posting "fluff" comments in the other forums just so they can make the limit. I believe this already happens to an extent from B&S members who are trying to build "post cred" to help them buy and sell gear. I don't think it has gotten to intolerable levels but I do think it exists. If you have been noticing a rash of "review-gaming", maybe you need to do something. It just seems to me that the example in this thread is pretty weak justification on its own. May 06, 2012 at 07:46 PM

CGrindahl Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #11 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts My relationship to this site has changed over time. At the beginning I saw it simply as a place to build a kit. Yes, I'd browse different forums from time to time but never participated in conversations and certainly never posted a photo. About four years in I became more involved. I didn't have very many posts and those were exclusively on the Buy and Sell board. Now I feel as though I'm a full fledged member of this community, initiating threads, engaging in conversations, sharing photos and enjoying some wonderful friendships formed here. Frankly, I don't care much to read reviews from folks who have no commitment to this site. If I want professional reviews there are plenty of places to find them. What I appreciate are opinions from folks who've become engaged in the conversation on this site about gear they're using. Granted, a great deal of that happens in threads on the site, not in reviews. Frankly, I doubt that the opportunity to write a review would in itself motivate someone to get involved in this site. Personally, I'd like to see a minimum number of posts OUTSIDE the Buy and Sell board to quality to offer reviews. That will get rid of the folks who simply want to slam a product. It might also encourage folks to step beyond the B&S thread to explore the amazing richness of material available on this site. Folks who are willing to meet their fellow photographers will be more likely to treat reviews with greater respect, knowing it will be friends they're helping with their comments. My two cents... May 08, 2012 at 01:36 AM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #12 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts CGrindahl wrote: My relationship to this site has changed over time. At the beginning I saw it simply as a place to build a kit. Yes, I'd browse different forums from time to time but never participated in conversations and certainly never posted a photo. About four years in I became more involved. I didn't have very many posts and those were exclusively on the Buy and Sell board. Now I feel as though I'm a full fledged member of this community, initiating threads, engaging in conversations, sharing photos and enjoying some wonderful friendships formed here. Frankly, I don't care much to read reviews from folks who have no commitment to this site. If I want professional reviews there are plenty of places to find them. What I appreciate are opinions from folks who've become engaged in the conversation on this site about gear they're using. Granted, a great deal of that happens in threads on the site, not in reviews. Frankly, I doubt that the opportunity to write a review would in itself motivate someone to get involved in this site. Personally, I'd like to see a minimum number of posts OUTSIDE the Buy and Sell board to quality to offer reviews. That will get rid of the folks who simply want to slam a product. It might also encourage folks to step beyond the B&S thread to explore the amazing richness of material available on this site. Folks who are willing to meet their fellow photographers will be more likely to treat reviews with greater respect, knowing it will be friends they're helping with their comments. Perfect! And a solid insight on posts outside B&S. Thank You for a wonderfully written post. May 08, 2012 at 04:41 AM

Eyeball Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #13 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts CGrindahl wrote: That will get rid of the folks who simply want to slam a product. . . . as well as those folks who simply want to boost up the ratings of a product. Again, in the case presented there were more zero-post "10" ratings than zero-post "trash" (6-7) ratings. I just think it's important to get the facts straight. May 08, 2012 at 08:36 AM

Eyeball Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #14 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts CGrindahl wrote: Frankly, I doubt that the opportunity to write a review would in itself motivate someone to get involved in this site. Well, this hardly constitutes a trend but take a look at member L.J.G. in the very thread being cited by the OP. His first review was the day he signed up. He has then continued to contribute and post images over the last year. May 08, 2012 at 09:41 AM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #15 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts I opened the post: I went to post a review but found two drive-bys with "0" posts took a dump on the lens. http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=408&sort=4&cat=27&page=1 Eyeball wrote: Well, this hardly constitutes a trend but take a look at member L.J.G. in the very thread being cited by the OP. His first review was the day he signed up. He has then continued to contribute and post images over the last year. As noted, the L.J.G. post is a year old. It is also consistent with the overall trend of 15-85 reviews. CGrindahl eloquently outlines the progression that I think many of us follow as the light dawns that FredMiranda.com is a truly unique place. At the top of a long list of precious FM resources is the willingness to share experiences and expertise as well as images. Look at the workflow posts by Conrad Tan, Tim Kuhn, Imagemaster and MANY others. I guarantee the expertise they shared on FM became the outline for profitable seminars and training courses. This in addition to countless ideas, tips and smiles along the way. Lastly, this post pointed to what I saw as problem. Some might agree while others disagree --- I'll support Fred's decision as to what, if any, action is required. Edited on May 08, 2012 at 11:07 PM · View previous versions May 08, 2012 at 12:20 PM

borderlight Offline • • • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #16 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts I don't know if a 6 or 7 rating is "a dump". Not everybody must give a lens a 9 or 10 .....and it's all personal opinions anyway. On FM there is no criteria necessary for any experience, training, or testing equipment to qualify as a reviewer. FM can set a minimum number of posts for reviewers but that doesn't really guarantee that after posting, say, 100 times that a review will be more revealing or insightful than one given a month earlier when the same poster had no posts. As mentioned above, there are plenty of websites that review equipment for a living. On FM a 8-10 rating might be a good indicator, but certainly not always the final word. May 08, 2012 at 03:32 PM

mgd43 Offline • Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #17 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts You have to take any user review with some skepicism if you don't know the reliability of the user. Some people don't have a good basis of comparison, some don't know enough to make an accurate evaluation, and some have an ax to grind. If you use user reviews, look for a consensus, and ignore reviews very far from the consensus. May 09, 2012 at 10:07 PM

unclechuck Offline • • Upload & Sell: On p.1 #18 · (updated) Revealed: Wierd Review Posts Updated --- see top post Jul 10, 2012 at 02:53 PM

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