Steve Spencer wrote:
Although this is true, current A-mount lenses are designed for a longer registration distance and if these lenses are going to be useful on a new camera, then that registration distance will need to be maintained. Sure they could make a new line of lenses with a shorter registration distance, but I can't see Sony doing that, and I especially can't see them doing it in any kind of timely fashion as Sony seems to bring out lenses quite slowly. So, IMO, given that Sony has a lot of lenses for the A-mount, I can't see them pulling off a FF mirror less with a shorter registration distance for FF lenses....Show more →
No, they just need a better handling version of the LA-EAx adapters. Say a module like the GXR which swaps between the two options.
I guess we'll just have to see. The body you're envisioning makes full frame the extra add-on, rather than the primary feature of the body. That's bass-ackwards. Sony would have to convince buyers to purchase an expensive full-frame body whose handling is only optimized for cropped lenses.
I believe it's much more likely that a full frame mirrorless body will be optimized for full frame lenses that are part of an integrated system. This isn't Burger King, or Lego. I doubt Sony is interested in building an a la carte body that you can mix and match for your existing tastes. For that, maybe you might have more luck with Ricoh.
But, as I said... we'll see.
Apr 16, 2012 at 01:06 PM
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Steve Spencer wrote:
Note the register difference is irrelevant to FF performance with mirrorless, only the throat diameter matters in terms of the mount. Unlike SLR's, the register doesn't really affect the optical design as long as you can get the optical unit inside the mount flange (actually it doesn't really even with SLR's, the issue is and always has been mirror clearance). So you could do a FF body with the NEX's register, but it would probably require a larger diameter mount.
Although this is true, current A-mount lenses are designed for a longer registration distance and if these lenses are going to be useful on a new camera, then that registration distance will need to be maintained. Sure they could make a new line of lenses with a shorter registration distance, but I can't see Sony doing that, and I especially can't see them doing it in any kind of timely fashion as Sony seems to bring out lenses quite slowly. So, IMO, given that Sony has a lot of lenses for the A-mount, I can't see them pulling off a FF mirror less with a shorter registration distance for FF lenses....Show more →
mawz responded:
No, they just need a better handling version of the LA-EAx adapters. Say a module like the GXR which swaps between the two options.
Said another way, if they make a camera with a shorter full-frame register, they either have to make a second line of FF lenses or they would have to require use of an adapter on all of their FF lenses. IMO, neither of these options makes sense for Sony. One of their primary weaknesses, has been producing new lenses in a timely manner. I just don't buy that if they take on developing a whole new line of FF lenses that they will be able to pull it off in any acceptable type of manner. In contrast, shooting all FF lenses will an adapter no matter how well it handles seems like a totally inelegant solution to me. Why make it a full frame camera if you always have to use an adapter to use FF glass? If the intent of a full-frame camera is to use full frame glass, why not just build the mount so that it can be used without an adapter with full frame lenses? The bottom line from my perspective is that if either Sony or Fuji makes a short register FF mirrorless, it would make sense to also build a new line of lenses. I don't see either company doing that with Sony developing e-mount lenses and Fuji developing X-mount lenses. Neither company, IMO, has the engineering time or resources to develop and build yet another whole new line of lenses.
Smiert Spionam wrote:
I guess we'll just have to see. The body you're envisioning makes full frame the extra add-on, rather than the primary feature of the body. That's bass-ackwards. Sony would have to convince buyers to purchase an expensive full-frame body whose handling is only optimized for cropped lenses.
I don't understand what you mean. The camera could be packaged with whatever kind of tube was necessary for full-frame lenses already attached to the body, and it could look a lot more integrated than the current LA-EA2. Sony could square that extension piece off and make it look like it is part of the camera body itself, dare I say like that suspect looking K-01, and then that piece could be removed for E lens use.
Not a lot of people thought that Sony would build the LA-EA2, either, but this is likely the next step in Sony's long term camera future: integrating e-mount and a-mount into one line of cameras with a little bit of modularity.
It just seems to me that if Sony releases the first full frame EVF mirrorless, it will be a premium product, designed to work as an integrated system. In a market currently 100% owned by Leica, it will not be a budget box that you can use for an oddball assortment of your personal favorites and leftover NEX stuff. The only premium lens in the entire NEX line is the 24/1.8. There are others that are good quality -- and more importantly good values -- but nothing that would make them the kind of thing they would compromise a FF mirrorless body to accommodate.
I could see such a body having some sort of A-mount adapter, but not at the expense of a dedicated mount.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong. I just don't think Sony -- of all companies -- is going to see the K-01 as their ideal inspiration for a revolutionary new full frame mirrorless body.
And still, at the end of the day, it won't be a platform for uncropped Leica M lenses.
I don't think it will be a budget box. I just don't expect another lens line from Sony. So, if anything, I think we'll see what is essentially a, smallish, a-mount mirrorless camera (or SLT) that has a piece that removes to reveal an e-mount.
A-mount users will have a small, full frame camera to go along with their lenses, and everyone else can use the e-mount. Of course, while M lenses would be usable on such a camera, I don't expect Sony to take the steps necessary to allow great edge performance with these lenses.
I'm not really sure what else to expect from what is rumored to be a hybrid mount camera from Sony.
Its going to be A-Mount or E-Mount. If Sony was smart, it would be A-Mount and the body would be designed to hug around the lens mount, put all the electronics forward.
FlyPenFly wrote:
Its going to be A-Mount or E-Mount. If Sony was smart, it would be A-Mount and the body would be designed to hug around the lens mount, put all the electronics forward.
That would be interesting. I just don't know how doable. If you look at just about any mirrorless or DSLR/SLT out there, there is quite a bit of space used up by electronics behind the sensor, which is why DSLRs are so thick compared to older SLRs.
Actually, I don't think the body thickness issue is as much of a big deal as we often assume. A while back, I measured a D5100, D700, and an FE2, and the difference in depth of the D700 from the lens mount to the back of the body wasn't that far off the FE2. A lot of the body volume is pushed forward. I don't remember the precise numbers, but the D5100 was by far the deepest.
From your speculation, I'm picturing something that is essentially just a full frame DSLT, or whatever Sony is calling their pellicle system. Fine for current SLR users, who might appreciate its quiet operation and low vibration -- but there's no way in which having a little pop-out module that allows users to mount current NEX lenses will be satisfying to those who've gotten used to the sleek lines of the NEX-7. One of the better lenses, the 50/1.8 OSS, is lovely on the 7 -- a compact, competent, and perfect short tele. But slap it on an bulky body, and it's just another goofy lens that doesn't cover the camera's sensor. For that, we're supposed to be excited?
A hybrid A/E mount would be the Pontiak Aztek of mirrorless cameras, and Sony would never build it -- oh, wait, the K-01 already is that. Is there a successor to the Aztek? If so, that's the car that a Sony full-frame mirrorless would not be.
Smiert Spionam wrote:
Actually, I don't think the body thickness issue is as much of a big deal as we often assume. A while back, I measured a D5100, D700, and an FE2, and the difference in depth of the D700 from the lens mount to the back of the body wasn't that far off the FE2. A lot of the body volume is pushed forward. I don't remember the precise numbers, but the D5100 was by far the deepest.
From your speculation, I'm picturing something that is essentially just a full frame DSLT, or whatever Sony is calling their pellicle system. Fine for current SLR users, who might appreciate its quiet operation and low vibration -- but there's no way in which having a little pop-out module that allows users to mount current NEX lenses will be satisfying to those who've gotten used to the sleek lines of the NEX-7. One of the better lenses, the 50/1.8 OSS, is lovely on the 7 -- a compact, competent, and perfect short tele. But slap it on an bulky body, and it's just another goofy lens that doesn't cover the camera's sensor. For that, we're supposed to be excited?
A hybrid A/E mount would be the Pontiak Aztek of mirrorless cameras, and Sony would never build it -- oh, wait, the K-01 already is that. Is there a successor to the Aztek? If so, that's the car that a Sony full-frame mirrorless would not be.
There are no indications Sony is building a new, 135 mirrorless system from the ground up with a new lens line. There are rumors that a hybrid camera is being made. If that's the case, I'm curious what you'd think a hybrid mount would be? I don't think adding a simple tube for a-mount lenses would be all that bulky or ugly, especially if the AF motor was in the camera body. It would essentially be a NEX-7 with a more streamlined LA-EA2.
Of course, using the 50/1.8 OSS would not be on a bulky body, because the a-mount part would be removed.
Every DSLR has a some space behind the sensor, which film cameras don't have. You can see the space behind the D700's sensor in this pic from cameralabs. The sensor position indicator is near the bottom strap post:
Maybe they could do such a thing without it looking and feeling like a homely, ugly compromise. If so, great. I just don't buy the rumors, which don't pass the sniff test. It just seems counterintuitive to me. At bottom, I think the first full frame mirrorless alternative to Leica will be optimized for its own compact lenses, not a mash-up of a cropped mirrorless and a full frame SLR mount.
I could easily be wrong -- it happens all the time.
re. the depth issue: I understand fully -- and it's clear that no digital body can be quite as slim as a film body in the same mount, which has only a pressure plate and a back panel behind the film plane. It's just not as big an issue as sometimes is suggested.
I think some of you are thinking way too complicated about how this could be done. Compact design and the difference in backmount distance between different mounts can easily be obtained by a foldable design or a tube that extends for lenses with a longer flange distance. In fact this was already done in some Zeiss Ikon's old designs of the past.
A modern version of the Super Ikonta is what solves quite some issues with compactness and enough back mount distance at the same time. Not that I am convinced that this kind of design is gonna happen soon, but just to show it's not that complicated either.
I just can't see how buyers of a full-frame Sony mirrorless are going to get all gooey over the idea of using the small handful of NEX lenses in crop mode on a camera capable of so much more. The 24/1.8? No, you would just use a 35/2 that actually covered the format, for cheaper -- or a 35/1.4, for more. The consumer zooms?!? Who puts a Nikon 18-200 or 18-55 on a D800? The 16? You've gotta be kidding. The 50/1.8e is the most likely possibility, and unless it has a secret ability to cover a full-frame sensor (wildly unlikely), that's a non-starter, too.
No one would buy an expensive full-frame Sony with an NEX mount to use NEX lenses. Well, someone would -- but probably no more than bought the $7000 Sigma Foveon DSLR. There are also people who think a mullet is the ultimate haircut (business up front, party in the rear), but I'd hate to chase that market, either.
The only other possible reason to maintain the e-mount would be to serve the third-party market that has exploded with the NEX.
Which leads to a serious question: why make it easy for your customers to use your flagship camera with other manufacturers' lenses, when you could make a better integrated system that steers them toward your own? Sure, doing so would help sell some cameras -- but manufacturers make their profit on lenses, not bodies.
I still believe that a full-frame EVF mirrorless, if it comes from someone like Fuji or Sony, will either be a stripped down DSLR body with a standard mount (ie, Alpha), or it will have its own dedicated mount -- shallower than a typical SLR, but likely deeper than Leica M. If it comes from Sony, I could see it having an Alpha adapter available, just as the NEX does. If you're looking for a dreamboat Leica M platform with an EVF, Cosina is your only possibly chance, and there are still sensor problems to resolve.
Anyway -- we're just going around in circles. All this talk makes me need to get outside. I think I'm going to go camping. Honey, load up the Aztek! And take a ballgown, too -- we'll close out the night at the Met.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool if Sony brought out an all-new 35mm mirrorless system. I just don't think it is happening, because it seems dubious that Sony would develop a third lens line in order to do so. They can barely keep up with developing the two lens lines that they already have. The only hint we've had is the rumor of a possible hybrid mount, so that's where most of the speculation exists.
I'm not sure what would separate a stripped down, DSLR-bodied, mirrorless a-mount camera from current SLTs, outside of lacking a mirror to use PDAF. Then Sony really would end up with the K-01, which is the wrong combination of ideas...kinda like the Aztek.
Ultimately, I think Sony sees aps-c as the future. Their newest lens line is for that format, it is cross compatible with Super35, and they're even using e-mount on some higher end video cameras, now.
Cheers to all of the above -- and my apologies for riding the Aztek comparison so hard.
There are some people (not you) making wild-ass speculations that are almost completely unmoored from reality. I doubt they'll be satisfied by whatever comes next, but they never will.
I think you're probably right about aps-c, though I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Personally, I'm quite happy with the NEX-7, so I'm fairly agnostic about their future developments, unless they really come up with something amazing. About all I really want is an excellent 12-14mm prime for the NEX, or a short-throw wide zoom that isn't too bulky -- something that gives me a bit more quality without the processing complications of the CV lenses would be great, and it would further shrink the set of things that I use my full frame SLR for.
Agreed. Even if Sony did make an all new, 135 mirrorless line, I'm not sure how interested I'd be, assuming the size difference in at least the lenses. The NEX-7 seems a pretty good compromise.
