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Archive 2012 · Your Best Image this Week Thread
  
 
Mescalamba
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p.9 #1 · p.9 #1 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


FlyPenFly wrote:
You have to already be inside crop mode by hitting R then hit o. Shift o seems to flip it.


Ah, thanks.. I think I will stick to what I use.



Jul 16, 2012 at 07:56 PM
Makten
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p.9 #2 · p.9 #2 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


briantho wrote:
It may not make you take better images, but knowledge about composition rules definitely can make your taken images better.


I disagree. If you have to follow rules, you'll probably never understand why a good composition is good anyway. Try to just follow your own feelings instead.

FlyPenFly wrote:
Why wouldn't you use the golden equation in some of your images?


Because to me photography has nothing with rules or equations to do. The day I have to use some sort of overlaying lines to figure out if the composition is "good", I'll quit photography right away.

AhamB wrote:
I think Makten always(?) posts uncropped (3:2) images.


Nope, I crop almost every photo I take. Partly because I hate 3:2 (leaning more towards 4:3) and partly because I tend to compose a tad "loose" at the shooting moment, just to be able to figure out the best framing afterwards. It's also very hard to get 100% straight lines in a small viewfinder, if that's what you're after.

-------------------

That said, this is my best image from this week. As you can see, it's all about the straightness.


School by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


The uncropped original looks like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Makten/_DSC2104_CF_liten.jpg


As you might understand, it wasn't easy to get everything straight without a tripod and I only tripped the shutter once.



Jul 16, 2012 at 08:04 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.9 #3 · p.9 #3 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Yeah but in the above image you cropped it into a grid.

Whether on purpose or not, if you're human you see in certain ratios. It's just natural law and you can deny it to feel special but that's just the reality of it. It helps to understand the background behind it if you think your images are so special.



Jul 16, 2012 at 08:25 PM
Makten
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p.9 #4 · p.9 #4 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


FlyPenFly wrote:
Yeah but in the above image you cropped it into a grid.


Without using a grid.

Whether on purpose or not, if you're human you see in certain ratios. It's just natural law and you can deny it to feel special but that's just the reality of it. It helps to understand the background behind it if you think your images are so special.

So why use a grid then?

I don't think my images are very special, but at least I try to make some sense, compositionwise. Many people just point their camera at whatever that looks nice and press the button without thinking at all. Oh well, the horizon might be straight, but... Grids in PP won't help them, I'm afraid.



Jul 16, 2012 at 08:55 PM
Bifurcator
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p.9 #5 · p.9 #5 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


I'm like, in the middle somewhere. I think before I click usually but this is along the lines of what I think:

    - Gee, I'm going to have to get contorted and stuff to get that shot... I'll just take it from here and fix it in post - (via cropping or whatever)

    - I'm so glad sensors are higher rez than 4mp these days... I can just shoot that from here and crop it later! Walking is for losers!

    - I don't wanna go back home and get the longer lens like I should... I'll just use this one and crop it later...

    - Wow, all this detail, all these potential compositional elements, I'll be able to make a whole bunch of different images from this one shot - just by cropping.

    - etc.












Crop Lines On Original



Edited on Jul 16, 2012 at 09:36 PM · View previous versions



Jul 16, 2012 at 09:14 PM
briantho
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p.9 #6 · p.9 #6 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Makten wrote:
I disagree. If you have to follow rules, you'll probably never understand why a good composition is good anyway. Try to just follow your own feelings instead.


Well, I disagree with you. And so does Plato, Newton, the ancient greeks, Rembrandt, Da Vinci and every art school in the world.



Jul 16, 2012 at 09:24 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.9 #7 · p.9 #7 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Makten wrote:
Without using a grid.

So why use a grid then?

I don't think my images are very special, but at least I try to make some sense, compositionwise. Many people just point their camera at whatever that looks nice and press the button without thinking at all. Oh well, the horizon might be straight, but... Grids in PP won't help them, I'm afraid.


Well what I'm saying is, in the crop above, you're obviously using many photographic principles taught in Photo 101 in terms of composition. I think its silly to dismiss core image making compositional ideas common since Leonardo; you're following those rules whether you know it or not since almost nothing is original.



Jul 16, 2012 at 09:24 PM
Makten
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p.9 #8 · p.9 #8 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


FlyPenFly wrote:
Well what I'm saying is, in the crop above, you're obviously using many photographic principles taught in Photo 101 in terms of composition.


Interesting. I've never heard those principles, nor have I ever tried to follow any "rules".

I think its silly to dismiss core image making compositional ideas common since Leonardo; you're following those rules whether you know it or not since almost nothing is original.

That might be true, but in that case, I think that if you don't see the "rules" without getting teached, you'll never get there anyway. Using rulers is like have auto grammar correction on when you write something.
Of course you can use "rules" to explain why a majority of people like a certain image. But trying to follow that rule will probably not make you a better photographer at all. Because it's the good photographers who set the rules. They dont follow them.



Jul 16, 2012 at 09:56 PM
briantho
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p.9 #9 · p.9 #9 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Makten wrote:
That might be true, but in that case, I think that if you don't see the "rules" without getting teached, you'll never get there anyway. Using rulers is like have auto grammar correction on when you write something.
Of course you can use "rules" to explain why a majority of people like a certain image. But trying to follow that rule will probably not make you a better photographer at all. Because it's the good photographers who set the rules. They dont follow them.


Makten, the rules are not set by photographers, that's ridiculous. The rules were "discovered" hundreds of years ago by mathematicians, painters and architects.

BTW, are we off topic yet?



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:02 PM
Makten
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p.9 #10 · p.9 #10 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


briantho wrote:
Makten, the rules are not set by photographers, that's ridiculous. The rules were "discovered" hundreds of years ago by painters and architects.

BTW, are we off topic yet?


Yes, we are off topic. What I mean is: THERE ARE NO FREAKING RULES. If it looks good, it is good. I hope you don't have to use a ruler to see or feel if something looks good. Use that feeling when you compose, and you'll get lucky.



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:04 PM
 

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briantho
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p.9 #11 · p.9 #11 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Well then, the non existant rules made that lousy pic I took of the church a fine piece of art in some peoples minds.

I doubt they would have liked my original comp, but then I did admit I'm not perfect, so I actually do need a ruler

To get back on topic, here is my best shot this week. And yes, it follows the golden equation

Maybe we should start a topic on composition rules? Bif?


Smultron / Wild Strawberry / Fraises des Bois - Tight Crop by briantho, on Flickr

Sony NEX-5N, Contax 645 Apo-Makro-Planar 120mm.

Edited on Jul 16, 2012 at 10:20 PM · View previous versions



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:09 PM
Toothwalker
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p.9 #12 · p.9 #12 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


briantho wrote:
Well, I disagree with you. And so does Plato, Newton, the ancient greeks, Rembrandt, Da Vinci and every art school in the world.


No wonder they are all dead.




Jul 16, 2012 at 10:17 PM
wfrank
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p.9 #13 · p.9 #13 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


I think "rules" for composition are helpful but not more than that. As are rules for exposure, color, portraits or anything else, there are plenty around. In the end it's up to you. And in its best repetitive form, it develops into a Style. I dont like everything Makten posts, but he certainly has a Style. As do a few other here at Alt FM.

Personally I try to think in thirds as it helps me. I sometimes stretch to think in diagonals too. But I still find that many of the most amazing shots here rarely follows rules, or I can at least point out half a dozen broken ones. And to dismiss other peoples photography (/for not obeying rules/) by a pseudo coupling to Plato and whatnot is just plain ignorant.



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:21 PM
briantho
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p.9 #14 · p.9 #14 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


wfrank wrote:
I think "rules" are helpful but not more than that. As are rules for exposure, color, portraits or anything else, there are plenty around. In the end it's up to you. And in its best repetitive form, it develops into a Style. I dont like everything Makten posts, but he certainly has a Style. As do a few other here at Alt FM.

Personally I try to think in thirds as it helps me. I sometimes stretch to think in diagonals too. But I still find that many of the most amazing shots here rarely follows rules, or I can at
...Show more

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone has dismissed any one elses photography for not obeying rules.



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:24 PM
carstenw
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p.9 #15 · p.9 #15 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Personally I think that rules are primarily useful for people to learn who are not willing to experiment until they find their own style.

On the other hand, if I experiment, yet end up with something which looks like what you might have gotten by following the rules, I am still not following the rules.



Jul 16, 2012 at 10:47 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.9 #16 · p.9 #16 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


When I was a grad student I remember teaching undergrad designers who thought they were hot shots who weren't going to follow the rules. Their work sucks that year. it's fine and great to break the rules but understand it first, the context, the concepts, and the reasons then break them.
This way you won't look like a fool who just doesn't know what he is doing. And if you love breaking the rules all the time you work will look trite.

That said, almost all the work posted in Alt is excellent especially compared to all other photo forums Ive visited and if we are honest, nobody really breaks the rules.



Jul 16, 2012 at 11:30 PM
RustyBug
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p.9 #17 · p.9 #17 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Rules are tools ... right tool for the right job is conventional wisdom. Some peple can "freestyle", others need a little bit of a crutch to get them started or keep them going. Going against convention can be either creative or contrary ... kind of a fine line between the two sometimes.


Jul 17, 2012 at 12:32 AM
sebboh
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p.9 #18 · p.9 #18 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


rules are a bad word for them, "tools of composition" or something to that effect might be better for people who actually take photography seriously. knowing what certain shapes and geometric relationships are attractive, disorienting, make the viewer perceive motion, etc allows the photographer to actively search them out more easily to create the type of image they want to make (this includes purposely violating "rules" of course). it's true that one should be able to recognize such effects when they see it even if they don't understand why it works, but it's much easier to build the shot you want if you already know what you want in it.

for people who don't want to actually think about composition calling them a rule can be helpful. so many people with cameras just see something and shoot without thinking, telling them there are rules makes them stop and think which is always a good thing. telling the random waiter/tourist/family member how to use the "rule of thirds" (i mean how to frame the particular shot not explaining the rule to them) when they take your photo will almost certainly yield a better picture than just handing them the camera and asking them to take your picture. i believe the nikon 1 actually does this automatically in one of it's burst modes as a feature? it just selects the shot from the burst that best fits the rule of thirds keeps that shot from the burst or something like that.

on topic: no shot from me this week, i haven't downloaded any images off my camera in 2 weeks.



Jul 17, 2012 at 04:46 AM
Bifurcator
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p.9 #19 · p.9 #19 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


No, "rules" or "guidelines" are perfect words to describe them. That's what they are. The concept of using a rule or a guideline as a tool is an unnecessary abstraction. Thinking is a good thing I agree, but stopping to think because of a rule is perhaps the worst think (SIC) an artist (beginner or expert) could ever do. Think about it. It's much better to think in the natural artistic analogue of the creative mind rather than the contrived confines of exterior rules and/or guidelines.

Like Plato, Newton, the ancient greeks, and other bullshit artists clearly show in practice, knowing such rules and guidelines in photography can be interesting for the sake of definition - defining what attributes comprise a "good" photo to most human beings. But as soon as that crosses over and becomes an objective or a goal of the photographer a huge amount of the natural creative process is lost and we start seeing images that may be pleasant to look at but which lack depth. And it's that depth which separates a "good picture" from an artistic or creative photograph - one which is soon forgotten from one which is timeless and impact-full.

I totally understand Mak when he says: "THERE ARE NO FREAKING RULES" and standing near the place from which he makes that statement, I agree wholeheartedly! It doesn't mean they don't actually exist. It just means that they should be treated as if they don't when one's goal is to create "art" or make something on the meaningful side of the scale. Also consider that when Luke "used the force" for that fateful shot and blew the death star it didn't mean he had to erase all the rules of spaceflight from his brain - like keeping the canopy closed. It just means he had to operate from outside them - as if they didn't exist so to speak.

Of course that may just define the differences between some people here. I mean it may very well be that some here are after creating pleasant looking snapshots which deliver a fleeting grimace, a momentary feeling of "oh, that's nice.", or ring the bells of demonstration, and then soon pass. It's actually how the Alt forum is structured, right? We post a shot, maybe a person or two says "Nice!" and then it's already onto the next shot from the next guy or on to the next page. So this isn't a blameful or shameful thing - it's just a different rhythm or mindset. Others OTOH, might be trying to create art for prints and not just the purpose of posting on-line niblets. They may post to share their expressions and works of art (even in this rapid river of the Alt forum format) but they're not moving to the same rhythms nor dancing the same jig. Typically when one of those go by here, it moves me. The others, nope, I can barely remember a single one. I see more art-mind types in the other forums where it's structured in a single-photographer-per-thread format BTW.

We have a lot of the later type here too - A LOT!. Almost all of the lens sample images from lenses (the Rokkor 58/1.2 is a good example here!) which people tout as being unique or "exceptional" seem to have been created from within this mechanical soulless rule/guideline driven modality. It's seems obvious to me anyway. I want to continue seeing them, but they don't usually account for much creativity.




Jul 17, 2012 at 06:53 AM
RustyBug
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p.9 #20 · p.9 #20 · Your Best Image this Week Thread


Maybe I should have said "Rules can be like training wheels" ... they keep you safe, but they also keep you from maximum potential.

Like the "rules of the road" that say don't drive over X mph around a certain curve ... that rule is provided as a simpler way of providing guidance (guidelines) than requiring a full understanding of physics and coefficients of friction and vector forces in order to assess a speed, angle and trajectory.

Grandma ... I gotta slow down because the sign (rule) says so

Physicist ... with the coefficient of friction and contact patch area of these tires and the temperature and road conditions of the asphalt, I can safely go 30 mph over the sign's posted speed limit

Driving Enthusiast ... out-in-out @ apex ... those signs and lines are the most prohibitive and wrong way to maximize performance.

Many rules are tools of simplification (for ease/expedience of explanation to the masses) ... use them in accordance with your goals, experience and understanding. The greater the latter, the less the need for the former. Sunny 16 or expose to the right are rules for "proper exposure" ... but if my goal is for a silhouette, they are rules that won't do me much good ... unless I add another "rule" to it that suggests how much departure from the first rule is typically required to achieve my goal.

For some, it's an intellectual growth thing, for others it is more visceral.



Jul 17, 2012 at 12:00 PM
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