Home · Register · Search · View Winners · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2012 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!
  
 
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Hi everyone. I'm a jobbing wildlife photographer based in Scotland but, to my shame, an utter and complete technophobe. I HATE everything to do with digital photography except its amazing usefulness :¬)

I've recently acquired a Canon 1Ds Mk2 on which I shoot RAW. I'm wondering why the CR2 files it generates are on average around 12Mb in size with the very occasional one being 14Mb and many in the 11 to 12Mb range. I am shooting with a Canon 300mm f2.8 (non-IS) lens.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this right and if so, what is causing this smaller file size than I would expect from this sensor?

Please don't be kind, feel free to be patronising, I understand that I should know this!

Many thanks for any help. Cheers, Nic

ps - is firmware 1.1.6 the latest for this camera? If not, where can I get the latest?



Feb 21, 2012 at 11:34 AM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


I must admit that does seem small. Looking at my 5D cr2 files they are around the 12-16MB range and it's only 12.8MP I would have expected 14-18MB from 1Ds II. I just saw the Canon white paper and it says at ISO 100 cr2 files are around 14.6MB. Another review I saw says around 13-16MB. I guess they could have improved the compression algorithm from 5D to 1Ds II?

Edited on Feb 21, 2012 at 11:59 AM · View previous versions



Feb 21, 2012 at 11:56 AM
gadget_
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


The file sizes vary depending on how much detail is actually in your photo! RAW is still compressed, but unlike JPG it only compresses where it can without quality loss. ISO also makes a big difference. High ISO has a lot more grain which in file terms is a lot more detail to remember.


Feb 21, 2012 at 11:58 AM
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Thanks for your replies thus far. I'll let this run awhile before I comment further (not least because I have nothing to contribute!). But I realise I did fail to mention that I shoot at ISO 100. Another dumb question, is file size affected at all by the lens that you shoot with? This is obviously a great camera and I want to make sure I'm getting the most out of it.


Feb 21, 2012 at 12:12 PM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


File size can vary enrmously with ISO and the level of detail in the scene, but even so I find it hard to believe it is producing 11MB files unless they are of very lightly textured scenes eg snow, sky. My 5D produces files up to 19MB at ISO 100 for some landscapes. Smallest one I could find was 10.5MB.


Feb 21, 2012 at 12:25 PM
evertdoorn
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


let me guess, you've been shooting stunning Scottish landscapes full of snow?


Feb 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM
morganb4
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Its basically a detail/compression thing. Try switching to ISO 1600 and watch the file size blow out.

That being said, 12MB is still on the small side.



Feb 21, 2012 at 01:38 PM
kbperry810
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


This could be a very silly question/reply, as I've never shot in anything but standard RAW... but could it by chance be set to mRaw?

I've never actually tried shooting in mRaw, so not sure what the expected reduction in file size would be.... just something that randomly popped into my mind while I was reading the thread.




Feb 21, 2012 at 01:50 PM
oldrattler
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


I am no expert but I shoot a 1Ds II and love it.. With my files I find the brighter / blown out the image, the smaller the file size.. Conversely, more detail, larger files... This might help:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_file#Image_file_sizes


Feb 21, 2012 at 02:12 PM
S Dilworth
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Hi Nic. The first thing to clarify is that megapixels (informally abbreviated MP) and megabytes (MB) are not the same thing. I mention this because people often confuse the two, not because you've necessarily done so.

A megapixel is a million pixels (the digital dots that make up the image).

A megabyte is a million bytes (and a byte is in turn 8 bits, a bit being the most basic unit of information in digital systems, expressed as a 0 or 1 in binary notation).

Your EOS-1Ds Mark II has roughly 16 megapixels, but that doesn't mean you'd expect it to produce 16-megabyte files. Since it's a 12-bit camera, it produces 12 bits of information for each pixel, and it has 4992 × 3328 pixels (that's where the ~16 million comes from). If you multiply the pixel count (16 million) by the bit depth (12), you get a raw file size of about 190 megabits. Dividing that by 8 to get bytes, you get about 24 megabytes for the file size.

However, your camera compresses that information to save storage space, which is why Canon specifies an average raw file size of 14.6 megabytes (on page 45 of the EOS-1Ds Mark II user manual). You can think of this compression system as replacing all the "the" words in my message with the character z, which would make my message shorter without losing any information. Obviously it's a bit more sophisticated than that in practice, but that's the idea. The compression scheme works best if there is little detail to compress. If the photo has loads of identical blue pixels representing a large swathe of sky, for example, it's analogous to my message consisting of long sentences of "the the the the the the" – clearly very compressible information.

If, on the other hand, you're shooting dense forest full of tiny details, or shooting at a high ISO producing noisy images, the compression scheme is less effective. (The compression scheme can't tell the difference between noise and twigs: to it, they're both details that can't easily be compressed.)

Since you're shooting wildlife with a 300 mm lens, you probably have large out-of-focus areas in your photographs. These areas are easily compressible, since they're smooth and lacking in detail. Shooting at ISO 100 also means noise is kept to a minimum. Both of these factors contribute to smaller-than-average raw files, and would explain why your files are around 12 megabytes instead of Canon's conservative figure of 14.6 megabytes.



Feb 21, 2012 at 02:43 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Thank you everyone. Just taking a break from the interminable PP work.

I think most of the comments have a sub text that I should really be taking more shots in more situations and then sitting down and working out what the differences are. When I generate one of those bigger files, I'll know I'm on to something. I will endeavour to do that and post again if the "problem" (if problem it be) remains. Now if the weather would just improve!

Thanks too S Dilworth for your comprehensive reply, much to think about there.

evertdoorn - sadly not, I'm based on the West coast and we actually get very little snow. Any we do get generally doesn't last long. But there are some wonderful sea views over to the likes of the Nevis Range which does indeed look pretty dramatic.

Finally, good luck to any wildlifers out there entering this year's WPOTY. Only 2 days to go!

Thanks again for your input. I'll post here if/when I resolve this.



Feb 21, 2012 at 03:51 PM
S Dilworth
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


If you want to generate a large file to satisfy yourself that the camera is working correctly, try shooting a detailed scene (with as little sky as possible), with sufficient depth of field to render everything in sharp focus, with a nice bright exposure, at ISO 1600. A sharp wide-angle lens would be best for this. I'd be amazed if such a photo wasn't substantially over 12 megabytes!


Feb 21, 2012 at 03:59 PM
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


@ oldrattler

Thanks, that's a handy link. I'll keep it bookmarked. I need all the help I can get!

Edited on Feb 21, 2012 at 04:09 PM · View previous versions



Feb 21, 2012 at 04:04 PM
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


S Dilworth wrote:
If you want to generate a large file to satisfy yourself that the camera is working correctly, try shooting a detailed scene (with as little sky as possible), with sufficient depth of field to render everything in sharp focus, with a nice bright exposure, at ISO 1600. A sharp wide-angle lens would be best for this. I'd be amazed if such a photo wasn't substantially over 12 megabytes!



Thanks, just getting the hang of this Forum. I will disentangle the camera from my 300mm (it's completely wrapped up because of where I work) and try a wide angle lens to shoot something complicated. Cheers.



Feb 21, 2012 at 04:08 PM
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


kbperry810 wrote:
This could be a very silly question/reply, as I've never shot in anything but standard RAW... but could it by chance be set to mRaw?

I've never actually tried shooting in mRaw, so not sure what the expected reduction in file size would be.... just something that randomly popped into my mind while I was reading the thread.



Thanks for the thought. I thought I'd pretty much done all the selection in camera that I can, but I'll double-check.



Feb 21, 2012 at 04:12 PM
Nic Davies
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Pixel Perfect wrote:
File size can vary enrmously with ISO and the level of detail in the scene, but even so I find it hard to believe it is producing 11MB files unless they are of very lightly textured scenes eg snow, sky. My 5D produces files up to 19MB at ISO 100 for some landscapes. Smallest one I could find was 10.5MB.



Thanks PP (not calling you "interminable" by the way!!). All the posts here have reassured me, at least to the extent that I'm more confident a bit more experimentation will do the trick. Couldn't send us a bit of your sun could you?



Feb 21, 2012 at 04:16 PM
Mitchell Carter
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Nice explanation, Dilworth. Now I know why my buffer is one shot fewer at high ISOs.


Feb 21, 2012 at 04:19 PM
OntheRez
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Nic,

I sympathize with your struggles in moving from analog to digital. Two utterly different skill sets particularly in PP. You're to be congratulated in working with the 1DsII. To my mind it is one of Canon's finest efforts. I shoot with it extensively. In fact unless I'm shooting action or working in low light it is my camera of choice.

I sort of randomly bounced thru my 200 GB worth of RAW files watching changes in size. The smallest I saw was 11.6MB and the largest 22.3MB. I'd guesstimate that the average is around 15.5GB. There is not a direct answer to what makes a file bigger. Certainly higher ISO does - though I have some ISO 100 shots in the 17MB range. Complexity of subject matter influences it, but then I have a single hawk on a blue sky that comes out at about 16MB!? If you never get over 12MB then I'd say you are either working at low ISO in good light with simple (i.e. not a lot of variation in tonal quality) images. If that doesn't describe your work then some of the suggestions above should be considered. (Like making sure you are shooting in full RAW and not something else.) I have noticed that there is a tendency for my long lenses e.g. 400 f/5.6L to create a larger file than my 16-35 f/2.8L but this may be more a factor of subject matter rather than the lenses themselves.

Entering the world of digital photography is like crossing into a strange other dimension where they use the same words but it often means something different and where instead of a hands on in the developer connection to your images, it always begins at a distance, in abstract on a computer. All I can say is that despite the challenges of learning, I'll never go back to analog photography for anything other than the occasion B&W for old time's sake.

Robert



Feb 21, 2012 at 04:25 PM
dave chilvers
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


Nic Davies wrote:
Hi everyone. I'm a jobbing wildlife photographer based in Scotland but, to my shame, an utter and complete technophobe. I HATE everything to do with digital photography except its amazing usefulness :¬)

I've recently acquired a Canon 1Ds Mk2 on which I shoot RAW. I'm wondering why the CR2 files it generates are on average around 12Mb in size with the very occasional one being 14Mb and many in the 11 to 12Mb range. I am shooting with a Canon 300mm f2.8 (non-IS) lens.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this right and if so, what is causing this smaller file size
...Show more

I think that is the latest firmware.

Just been looking at my 1dsmk2 images and a woodland scene with no sky but plenty of trees and leaves runs out using the 17-40 @ ISO 400 around 18-19Mb(some even 21Mb) a river scene with 30% sky and 10% water runs out between 12-14Mb.

Hope it helps

Dave



Feb 21, 2012 at 06:00 PM
dave chilvers
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon 1Ds MkII dumb question, embarrassed to ask!


yes! that is the latest

UK site seems to be down at present but try this USA site http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/support/professional/professional_cameras/eos_digital_slr_cameras/eos_1ds_mark_ii#DriversAndSoftware



Feb 21, 2012 at 06:11 PM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username   Password    Reset password