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Archive 2012 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)

  
 
uhoh7
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p.3 #1 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
would you want a self aware camera? "I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I cannot take another picture of your cat."




I would imagine that this whole embarrasing tendency to project is most encouraged by the consious-like mechanism of auto-focus.

Kitty.......HELLO!



Feb 21, 2012 at 01:56 PM
Smiert Spionam
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p.3 #2 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Oh, please Mr. Sony, make it so!


A fella can dream.



Feb 21, 2012 at 01:56 PM
alwang
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p.3 #3 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


Bifurcator wrote:
I totally know where you're coming from! As a non-professional about 25% or a tad more, of the fun in shooting is using interesting, well built, soulful equipment manufactured by a maker I can respect. Sony is worst of all but Panasonic too gets absolutely zero points in those areas! (Hehe, maybe Sony gets negative points!) IMO the OM-D is the first mirrorless to score at all in these areas - besides maybe the Fuji that is - but that's based on a rangefinder design an I don't really get on with RF designs unless they're ancient.

Anyway I can +1
...Show more

I agree that it's possible to have an emotional connection (call it a soul, or whatever) to cameras based on how they look or how they feel in the hand, but to judge a camera from the name on the label seems pointless, IMO. Even with their storied photography history, I'd have a hard time respecting the current Olympus corporation. Frankly, my concern would be if they'll survive their current problems with a consumer camera division intact.



Feb 21, 2012 at 02:07 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.3 #4 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


Soul and cameras- not the first time this concept has come up:

http://blog.leica-camera.com/photographers/guest-blog-posts/do-leica-cameras-have-a-soul/




Feb 21, 2012 at 02:17 PM
philip_pj
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p.3 #5 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


'I think you'll have a problem with NEX doing wide angle landscape work.'

My 'understatement of the month' award goes to you! Not a NEX issue of course, the camera makers are to blame for having never supported the APS-C format, it's a mystery to me because the heavy volume of the market is there and has been been for over a decade now.

Looking through all the lenses listed in the NEX lineup thread, all the 'wider than 28mm effective' ones are oddballs from CV (Leica M mount lenses), Sigma, Samyang, and the pretty ordinary Sony 16mm. People are 'making do'.

None ranks with a Distagon 21mm or either 25mm, Leica 19mm, the slow RF 24mm Leica philber uses, Nikon's 14-24mm, the various RF Zeiss 24-25mm, let alone the fast 24mms - all on full frame. Many of these are fabulous lenses, even in deep corners. The NEX lot are not even in the same region, even though they 'work'.

Combine the useless efforts of higher end lens producers for APS-C with the NEX's 'issues' with symmetric wide angle lens, and I find it hard to recommend the series for landscape work, as the term is traditionally understood.

The NEX image thread provides evidence for people's usage of the cameras.

If we accept that 'landscape photography' excludes bokeh shots, images with no subject matter more than 30-40m away, humans, and the focus not on a built object (ruins, sheds, meters, machinery, etc) then working from the most recent page backwards, I counted 141 images, of which 5-6 met the above criteria, some only just (ploughed field or ski resort) for a landscape to total percentage of............just over 4%.

If nothing else, this simple exercise establishes that, for the overwhelming majority of FM Alt NEX users, NEXs are not being used for landscape photography, as the term is commonly understood.

I want a full frame NEX or similar. Until then, it appears to be a backward step for what I do, for the above reason - high end wide angle lens availability. Arguably, image quality depends more on lenses in this range than longer FL lenses.



Feb 22, 2012 at 01:40 AM
uhoh7
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p.3 #6 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6839868239_07b2f621e9_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7044/6844689585_fe33f164e0_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7176/6872695575_e0157b539f_b.jpg
ZM 18

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7055/6919809087_df891e3e08_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6919786897_bc057c1a0f_b.jpg
sigma 8-16 (alpha mount)

5n seems OK to me.

n7 lens set is being worked out. Philber says leica R 19 is good. The sigma would be fine i'd bet. I've heard reports the CV 12 is OK.

But I think the nex 5 & 7 may soon be eclipsed with a small FF evil. Or several. Meantime nex is fine



Feb 22, 2012 at 02:01 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #7 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


uhoh – all of those images include fences which are manmade objects, thus those are not landscape photos.

the main issue here is, as philip says, there are no top shelf aps-c ultrawides. by his own criteria there are really only 4 in current production by anyone even for FF dslrs (2 canon T/S lenses, Z* 21mm, and the nikkor 14-24mm). if you want to spend less than $2k you cannot get one at all (turns out they're actually kinda hard and expensive to make).

i agree, if ultrawide is your thing, aps-c is probably not the way to go unless you can handle some weakish corners.



Feb 22, 2012 at 02:25 AM
denoir
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p.3 #8 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


brockwhittaker wrote:
I have a 5D Classic, and am eyeballing the NEX 7. This is simply because it can use almost any lens, with an adapter. Convince me I'm wrong.


It's a crop sensor and they excel at transforming fantastic lenses into mediocre ones.



Feb 22, 2012 at 06:37 AM
ulrikft2
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p.3 #9 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


denoir wrote:
It's a crop sensor and they excel at transforming fantastic lenses into mediocre ones.


Pfft.. Some of the more magic shots I have from the minolta 58/1.2 is from my old 30d.. And you are way too young to be so bitter :P




Feb 22, 2012 at 06:45 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #10 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


I wonder if there ever will be an amazing wide angle prime for any of the mirrorless cameras. It seems to be a niche nobody wants to fill. Even MFT which has the really good Panasonic 7-14 is only a zoom.


Feb 22, 2012 at 08:29 AM
Smiert Spionam
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p.3 #11 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


sebboh wrote:
the main issue here is, as philip says, there are no top shelf aps-c ultrawides. by his own criteria there are really only 4 in current production by anyone even for FF dslrs (2 canon T/S lenses, Z* 21mm, and the nikkor 14-24mm). if you want to spend less than $2k you cannot get one at all (turns out they're actually kinda hard and expensive to make).


Good post -- an important observation.

The move to digital vastly expanded casual users' access to, and participation in, lens evaluation. Finally, we could all see exactly how our lenses performed at different apertures and in different environments, without having to use complicated testing regimes or record keeping. The NEX platform has further expanded this possibility by giving us a system on which virtually any lens made could be compared with any other. No more difficult comparisons of unlike systems, sensors, formats -- NEX has leveled the field, making it possible to compare SLR zooms with rangefinder wides, all on the same camera. That's pretty amazing, and has led to some great insights -- but it's also contributed a lot of noise. Thoughtful reviewers note a particular weakness (ALL lenses have them), and before long the chattering trolls (dpreview is the worst) turn that insight into a declaration of "unacceptable".

If you pull back a little, though, it's clear (as sebboh says) that wides are, except for the very high end, an ongoing problem, regardless of platform. People cluck about how "weak" the native e-mount 16/2.8 is, but its performance is probably middle-of-the-pack for APS wides. If you discount its performance at f/2.8 (a speed only reached by one APS zoom), it's fine. Compared to the 10-22, 10-24, 10-20, and 12-24 zooms, it's often a little better in the center, and a little worse in the corners (and sometimes not even that). None of those lenses are world class, either -- but like the 16/2.8, they're generally pretty decent. Shoot it at f/5.6 or f/8, and it's as good as any other wide lens made for the format. Maybe the Sigma 8-16 is a standout -- but even it is slow, a bit bulky, and doesn't allow filters. The real point is that there are no perfect no-compromise wide APS lenses.

On FX/full-frame, things honestly aren't that much better, though there are options at the upper end of the market. I can't think of a single <$1500 lens at or wider than 24mm that doesn't involve serious compromises, either. Virtually all legacy primes are seriously flawed at wide stops (and often stopped down, too). The most direct analog of the 16/2.8 in the Nikon line is the 24/2.8 (AIS or AF-D, which are more alike than different) -- and it's no better than the 16/2.8 (maybe a little better wide open on FX than the 16 is on the NEX, but it doesn't improve as much as the 16 does stopped down). Personally, I use the 16-35. It's not a perfect lens, but in the most important focal lengths (for me) it's outstanding. The only lenses that beat it in the 18-28mm range are the 14-24/2.8, 24/1.4g, and a couple of Zeiss primes. It easily outperforms both legacy primes and its APS-C counterparts, and I accept its limitations.

I'd love a reasonably compact truly stellar wide prime or two for the NEX. Unless and until one emerges, though, I'm not going to wring my hands too much longing for something that doesn't exist for any other APS camera, either.



Feb 22, 2012 at 10:02 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #12 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


The 16-50 f2.8 SSM that is supposedly being prepared for NEX is going to be decent on the wide end for a mid range zoom.

Personally I would have preferred a 16-35 F4 SSM OSS if they could make it a bit more compact.



Feb 22, 2012 at 10:33 AM
mawz
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p.3 #13 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


FlyPenFly wrote:
I wonder if there ever will be an amazing wide angle prime for any of the mirrorless cameras. It seems to be a niche nobody wants to fill. Even MFT which has the really good Panasonic 7-14 is only a zoom.


There is one. The DA 14/2.8 for the Pentax K-01 (it's actually very, very good.). Of course that's just a largish APS-C SLR lens on Pentax's hack-job of a mirrorless. Pentax's DA 15/4 Limited is also pretty good, but not as good as the DA 14.



Feb 22, 2012 at 10:43 AM
mawz
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p.3 #14 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


FlyPenFly wrote:
The 16-50 f2.8 SSM that is supposedly being prepared for NEX is going to be decent on the wide end for a mid range zoom.

Personally I would have preferred a 16-35 F4 SSM OSS if they could make it a bit more compact.


Where did you hear that it would be a 16-50/2.8? I know there's supposed to be a high-end normal zoom coming, but as far as I'm aware there's been zero info on range/speed.



Feb 22, 2012 at 10:53 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #15 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


FlyPenFly wrote:
I wonder if there ever will be an amazing wide angle prime for any of the mirrorless cameras. It seems to be a niche nobody wants to fill. Even MFT which has the really good Panasonic 7-14 is only a zoom.


i think it should be something way down on the list for manufacturers. most people have no need for 21mm (or wider) equiv field of view and most of the ones who do only need it to fit everything in not for maximum image quality. i think it'll be a long time just because of the small size of the market for a $1500 aps-c ultrawide prime.



Feb 22, 2012 at 11:14 AM
uhoh7
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p.3 #16 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


sebboh wrote:
uhoh – all of those images include fences which are manmade objects, thus those are not landscape photos.

oppps.

Obviously the real problem is the crop sensor. We will not be truly happy till we have a full frame and a 18 is 18, not 28ish, etc.

People who laugh at our FF needyness just don't get this I guess.

However what other APS-C camera can shoot better wide than the 5n?

A sony Zoom starting at 16 is just redundant--they need to get serious and start at 8, which give us 12mm. A good quality 7-21

That would be useful.




Feb 22, 2012 at 12:09 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.3 #17 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


I hope uhoh7's relentless optimism that a full frame mirrorless for "the rest of us" will soon be among us bears fruit. Count me in as one of the needy who would love to reclaim that lost control over depth of field, and get back the field of view from my lenses their designers originally intended.

Besides... the available lens choices would be fantastic, assuming a FX mirrorless doesn't incorporate SLR depth a la Pentax K-01... shudder. I'd love my 18 to be an 18 again, my 25 to be a 25. Who wouldn't like their fast 35's to actually regain their 35mm field of view? And who except the focus-challenged wouldn't want to regain the control lost to smaller sensors over depth of field?

Hopefully whoever comes to the table with a FX sensor mirrorless won't go the route of the Pentax K-01 and incorporate SLR depth into the body, because then my dream of having M lenses be a safe bet for portability across systems will disappear.



Feb 22, 2012 at 12:26 PM
Bifurcator
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p.3 #18 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


michaelwatkins wrote:
I hope uhoh7's relentless optimism that a full frame mirrorless for "the rest of us" will soon be...


But of course not for a few years yet. Even if they released such a camera tomorrow there are no WA system lenses to go with it so it would not be useful for what most say they want such a camera for till at least 18 more months to two years afterward anyway. And then there's price to consider too. It a FF EVIL were to be released tomorrow what do you think the prices would be? I guess $2.5K or upwards. Kinda steep when you consider there's no lens selection unique beyond what current mirrorlesses already have covered.

I want one too but I just don't see it happening till around 2014 or so.




Feb 22, 2012 at 12:50 PM
Smiert Spionam
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p.3 #19 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


Yeah, I'd love an FX mirrorless, but I doubt the perfect solution is right around the corner. Especially if it's any good, I think $2.5K is wildly optimistic. The chatter about an FX NEX hybrid doesn't make any sense -- the registration distance and mount differences would make such a beast a clunky compromise.

The idea that there could be an FX mirrorless in a body as compact as the NEX-7 (or even the new Fuji, which is considerably larger) is pure fantasy, at least with current sensor technology. Leica M lenses are designed for a registration distance of 27.8mm; NEX is 18mm. Imagine just how bad those corner issues would be if the NEX sensor was scaled up to cover the FX image circle. I doubt a native mount wide angle lens designed specifically for an 18mm reg. distance would be significantly better, which means that a mirrorless FX body would almost certainly be built with a deeper mount -- probably more like that of the M. Fine enough -- the M9 isn't really that big. But while that might (eventually) lead to some excellent native mount wide primes, it would likely complicate the adaptability of M-mount lenses to the new system, because you would lose that handy 10mm within which to place an adapter. Much gnashing of teeth.

I think the best chance of a new FX platform that is friendly to M-mount wides that sells for significantly less than a Leica M9 is for a third party to release a new M body. But who? In an ideal world, it might be a collaboration between Zeiss/Cosina and Sony, with a scaled up version of the 5n's sensor. In the real world, I just don't see it. And even if it did, I bet the corners would be hinky....

I'll stick with the NEX, with its limited but workable options, and keep an eye out for new lenses. Sony already says they're developing a wide zoom, which by rights ought to be better than APS SLR zooms, and considerably smaller. Probably more primes coming, too. In the meantime, I'm ok with what's currently available.



Feb 22, 2012 at 01:24 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.3 #20 · NEX vs DSLR (Lenses)


The lens situation depends greatly on the approach camera makers take but in either case there is no reason why a maker couldn't hit the streets running by levering their existing lens line up on a new body.

If they go the Pentax K-01 route, adopting their traditional SLR/DSLR flange focal distance, shoehorning the FFD into box somewhat smaller than a small DSLR, then the maker gets to hang on to their existing SLR/DSLR lens line ups. For any maker with a collection legacy and current full frame compatible lenses, that might be very tempting. The end result will be a somewhat smaller camera body with lenses no smaller than current except for perhaps legacy manual focus lenses. Is that enough to woo buyers? I guess it would work for some - maybe a working pro who simply needs a second body to hang the same lenses on, but there are already solutions for that today.

Maybe compatibility isn't the holy grail? Personally I think Pentax made a mistake with the K-01. Maybe simply downsizing DSLRs into reflex-mirror free smaller boxes won't be interesting or compelling enough to generate marketplace buzz and result in a new line of cameras with real longevity.

My gut says the better path for an established maker is to come up with (or resurrect from the past) a second line of full 135 frame system cameras... something of a "back-to-the-future" line of cameras returning to that period in the middle 1900's where small rangefinder style cameras were commonplace until SLR designs started chipping away at their slice of the market with their promise of better focusing for wide and telephoto lens users, and a new avenue for sales for camera system makers. Given today's technology we can have better focusing schemes that will support everything from close up macro photography to long telephoto lens use... in a camera without a mirror or a rangefinder patch. That's new, a situation that didn't exist in 1950. Or in 2000.

I hope my gut is right and a new mount / new lens line up is the path a good camera maker will head down for this type of product, so that we can get some size and weight savings benefits over all.

Even if they released such a camera tomorrow there are no WA system lenses to go with it

If a maker does choose to adopt a new back focal length does that have to mean starting from scratch when it comes to lens line up? Why can't a full frame camera lever off existing lenses much the way an APS-C based camera like Sony NEX or any camera popular with adapter makers and their buyers?

Provided designers of the new camera shave enough off their existing SLR/DSLR mount depth, adapting existing full frame lenses should be a trivial task. The makers should produce their own adapters and legitimize re-purposing of their own lenses, too.

If Nikon (^ insert favorite maker here) were to come out with a system having a new, narrower, flange focal length, then all of Nikon's existing FX lenses could be used on the new system, as well as Zeiss ZF and, egads, Canon's lenses -- as long as they shave off enough distance to allow for reliable adapters to be produced. Edit: I see Smiert Spionam has talked about this.

The problem child might be the M mount, if a designer wants to keep enough depth in the back focal length to minimize light path angle problems to the sensor. Then again... Leica's implementation works at ~28mm. Ricoh has shown they can master edge issues on the APS-C sensor; maybe it isn't that much of a stretch for them to do it on FX.

Or maybe Fujifilm's new approach is something others will turn to or learn from, if indeed it meets expectations that wider angle lenses close to that sensor implementation won't be as much of a challenge to support.

Thinking about this further, CANIKON probably would come to market with something that doesn't play well with M lenses. On the other hand, they have some experience in competing with Leica in the rangefinder market decades ago. Maybe they might want to revisit those days!

Ricoh (ignoring their Pentax face for a moment) is the dark horse that could do this and take on Leica by offering a full frame sensor compatible with M mount lenses. They have no existing lens line up or comparable full frame camera to protect.



Feb 22, 2012 at 01:30 PM
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