Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

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Archive 2012 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

coranda
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p.3 #1 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

David Baldwin wrote:
A 5D3 without a pixel increase makes no sense whatsoever.

And yet the flag ship went from 21 to 18. I'm not saying the 5DIII won't be a gazillion giga pixels but just that I'm not confident about any resolution speculation. A few months ago someone might have plausibly said that a 1DsIII replacement without a pixel increase makes no sense - but that's what we got.

Only time will tell. All other speculation has only entertainment value (not that there's anything wrong with entertainment).

Jan 30, 2012 at 12:20 PM

alundeb
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p.3 #2 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

How little we know, we don't know the display resolution, we don't know the magnification, we don't know how well the white dot represents the magnification, we dont know how large the white dot is.

Do we know how large the guineafowl is?

Lucky Nikon people, they get a 36 MP camera and know it

Jan 30, 2012 at 12:42 PM

S Dilworth
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p.3 #3 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

alundeb wrote:
How little we know, we don't know the display resolution, we don't know the magnification, we don't know how well the white dot represents the magnification, we dont know how large the white dot is.

You're right about all of the above, of course, but I think we can safely assume that:

- the playback magnification is 10x, just like all other Canons including the not-yet-shipping EOS-1D X (why do the Canon shooters in this thread think their cameras go to 100%, by the way?)
- the LCD is 720 x 480, just like other recent Canons
- the white boxes/dots on the display work just like the 60D and other recent Canons.

The problem of the very small size of the white box/dot remains, and limits accuracy pretty severely (though not as severely as some have alleged). It would be interesting to know if the spy photographer took more photos of the camera – he almost certainly did – but I'm not interested enough in this camera to ask him.

But I think John (and skibum5, who was too lazy to tell us!) had a good idea to use the display to estimate the sensor resolution. I can't resist at least playing with this kind of conundrum!

Jan 30, 2012 at 01:29 PM

digitalbug30d
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p.3 #4 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

sorry kids as I said before...its going to be 24mp...you'll see.

Jan 30, 2012 at 02:02 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #5 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

I would not wonder if it is - and D800 goes 24MP only, too. As far I see everything concerning this camera is still rumor,too. Why should Nikon tripple the predecessors resolution within 1 generation? If they are able to do so, I guess they would have been able to make a 16/18 MP FF D700 3 years ago, too.

Ralph

Jan 30, 2012 at 02:18 PM

Fred Relaix
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p.3 #6 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

Ralph Conway wrote:
I would not wonder if it is - and D800 goes 24MP only, too. As far I see everything concerning this camera is still rumor,too. Why should Nikon tripple the predecessors resolution within 1 generation? If they are able to do so, I guess they would have been able to make a 16/18 MP FF D700 3 years ago, too.

Ralph

It depends which company produces the sensor they use! The Sony a950 is rumored as a 36MP and Sony had said in the past they were developing a 36MP sensor, so it makes sense that Nikon has access to a 36MP sensor. Of course, we do not know who produces the D4 sensor, and it remains possible that they could also make another FX sensor of intermediate size

Jan 30, 2012 at 02:30 PM

S Dilworth
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p.3 #7 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

Ralph Conway wrote:
Why should Nikon tripple the predecessors resolution within 1 generation? If they are able to do so, I guess they would have been able to make a 16/18 MP FF D700 3 years ago, too.

The D700 was only Nikon's second full-frame SLR. There weren't many sensor options for it, not least because the new sensors that were nearly ready immediately went into the high-end D3X and D3S cameras (and, as it turned out, never trickled down).

But consider this: the 12-megapixel D3 replaced the 4.1-megapixel D2Hs, i.e. it tripled the pixel count, while more than doubling the sensor size! And on top of that, it doubled the sensor's efficiency, massively improved many camera sub-systems, and increased the frame rate. So there is precedence for Nikon tripling the pixel count in one generation, and generally making a big splash with a new camera.

I own a D700, so I'm not thrilled about it losing half its value overnight, if that happens. But I think a 36-megapixel D800 is now a near certainty.

Jan 30, 2012 at 02:40 PM

jasonpatrick
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p.3 #8 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

I could see Canon going with a lower megapixel count on the new camera. Would you trade 30 megapixels for 2 or even 3 stops of real ISO performance? Canon backed off the megapixel race with the higher end point and shoots in the last couple years, and the 18 megapixel t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D has stayed around for quite a bit - who knows.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:10 PM

alundeb
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p.3 #9 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

jasonpatrick wrote:
. Would you trade 30 megapixels for 2 or even 3 stops of real ISO performance? .

Will we never se an end to these entirely false assertions that resolution severely harms ISO performance?

The latest 16 MP APS-C sensor from Sony, with pixel density corresponding to 36 MP Full Frame, is nearly as efficient per area as the 12 MP D3s sensor, only 1/4 stops behind. The difference between 21 and 32 MP is completely negligible.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:18 PM

kewlcanon
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p.3 #10 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

If we downres the 36MP to 12MP how many stops can we gain ?

alundeb wrote:
jasonpatrick wrote:
. Would you trade 30 megapixels for 2 or even 3 stops of real ISO performance? .

Will we never se an end to these entirely false assertions that resolution severely harms ISO performance?

The latest 16 MP APS-C sensor from Sony, with pixel density corresponding to 36 MP Full Frame, is nearly as efficient per area as the 12 MP D3s sensor, only 1/4 stops behind. The difference between 21 and 32 MP is completely negligible.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:20 PM

alundeb
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p.3 #11 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

kewlcanon wrote:
If we downres the 36MP to 12MP how many stops can we gain ?

1.6 stops approximately, at the pixel level.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:22 PM

kewlcanon
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p.3 #12 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

Not bad, how about at image level from 36MP to 12MP ?.

alundeb wrote:
kewlcanon wrote:
If we downres the 36MP to 12MP how many stops can we gain ?

1.6 stops approximately, at the pixel level.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:24 PM

alundeb
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p.3 #13 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

kewlcanon wrote:
Not bad, how about at image level from 36MP to 12MP ?.

alundeb wrote:
kewlcanon wrote:
If we downres the 36MP to 12MP how many stops can we gain ?

1.6 stops approximately, at the pixel level.

If we go by the mentioned sensors, the 12 MP sensor will be 1/4 stop better at the image level.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:28 PM

David Baldwin
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p.3 #14 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

The flagship only uses 18 mpx because that allows the necessary fps for sport. otherwise there is absolutley nothing interesting or sacred about 18 mpx. FPS is irrelevant to the 5D series. The 5D is not a sports camera. Landscapers and studio photographers on average, would prefer 28 mpx to 18 mpx, and thats the direction the 5D3 will go in.

Jan 30, 2012 at 03:43 PM

bobbytan
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p.3 #15 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

Agreed.

David Baldwin wrote:
The flagship only uses 18 mpx because that allows the necessary fps for sport. otherwise there is absolutley nothing interesting or sacred about 18 mpx. FPS is irrelevant to the 5D series. The 5D is not a sports camera. Landscapers and studio photographers on average, would prefer 28 mpx to 18 mpx, and thats the direction the 5D3 will go in.

Jan 30, 2012 at 04:14 PM

skibum5
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p.3 #16 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

thw2 wrote:
skibum5 wrote:
i'm really getting tempted to call it a 30MPish, 6fps, 7D AF (+ ? ) 5D3
trying to put everything on FM together

obviously the CR/aqua specs are in extreme disagreement at 22MP and 7,5fps and perhaps even 61pt AF

If our interpretation of EOSFun's hints and your calculations are right, this will be a direct slap against CR's sources. And I don't think I will ever need to visit that site again.

OTOH if we are wrong then you will be forced to bow down before the deity that is CR and read his site one per hour for three straight years as penance.

Jan 30, 2012 at 07:28 PM

skibum5
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p.3 #17 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

godzillafowl is 300m tall, most likely
which implies a final MP count of approximately 19.345675434343MP

Jan 30, 2012 at 07:30 PM

skibum5
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p.3 #18 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

jasonpatrick wrote:
I could see Canon going with a lower megapixel count on the new camera. Would you trade 30 megapixels for 2 or even 3 stops of real ISO performance? Canon backed off the megapixel race with the higher end point and shoots in the last couple years, and the 18 megapixel t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D has stayed around for quite a bit - who knows.

more likely a max loss of 1/3 stop and more likely maybe only 1/6th stop, so who cares about that (onyl way you might care is Canon tends to get greedy lately and try to make up for any minute loss in SNR by reducing CFA even if that arguably causes more overall damage)

Jan 30, 2012 at 07:33 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #19 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

David Baldwin wrote:
The flagship only uses 18 mpx because that allows the necessary fps for sport. otherwise there is absolutley nothing interesting or sacred about 18 mpx. FPS is irrelevant to the 5D series. The 5D is not a sports camera. Landscapers and studio photographers on average, would prefer 28 mpx to 18 mpx, and thats the direction the 5D3 will go in.

The flagship only uses 18MP because this camera only had one goal in life and that is to dethrone Nikon D3s. 18MP would have been the highest resolution they could use with noise still better than D3s at pixel level. I think it has little to do with fps as they are approaching mechanical limits of what's possible with moving mirror. So even if it were 12MP 14fps RAW would still be about the physical limit anyway. I'll bet they tried the 21MP sensor and found they could not get noise where they wanted, but could still do 12fps with dual digic V. 18MP is their sweet spot compromise on noise, resolution, file size and speed.

Jan 30, 2012 at 09:32 PM

skibum5
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p.3 #20 · Limited evidence mystery camera (5DX) is 30MP+

Pixel Perfect wrote:
David Baldwin wrote:
The flagship only uses 18 mpx because that allows the necessary fps for sport. otherwise there is absolutley nothing interesting or sacred about 18 mpx. FPS is irrelevant to the 5D series. The 5D is not a sports camera. Landscapers and studio photographers on average, would prefer 28 mpx to 18 mpx, and thats the direction the 5D3 will go in.

The flagship only uses 18MP because this camera only had one goal in life and that is to dethrone Nikon D3s. 18MP would have been the highest resolution they could use with noise still better than D3s at pixel level. I think it has little to do with fps as they are approaching mechanical limits of what's possible with moving mirror. So even if it were 12MP 14fps RAW would still be about the physical limit anyway. I'll bet they tried the 21MP sensor and found they could not get noise where they wanted, but could still do 12fps with dual digic V. 18MP is their sweet spot compromise on noise, resolution, file size and speed.

I bet the PJ simply said we don't want to deal with >18MP files and we'd actually prefer less although we do like reach and FF has less reach so I guess 18MP is ok.

Possibly they had trouble doing non-skipped video at higher MP too (atlhough I hope not, since what would that mean for 5D3 if it has more MP, maybe it could use slide out video AA filer like I think the D800 will

).

Maybe reading more than 18MP at 12fps meant super fast ADCs and all and they had poor quality so while the higher MP could be fine at lower fps it impacted IQ at higher fps.

Or maybe reading 30MP at 12fps makes to much heat build up, there were rumors they were having bad issues with too much heat from new sensors and super fast reads/video reads.

Jan 30, 2012 at 09:45 PM

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