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Archive 2012 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

photoomaha
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p.1 #1 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

Just a basic ramble and my take on all the cool, hip "fuji" type cameras coming out. I am a strong Canon user, all the way back to an original rebel film camera, to Elan 7, and then the digital craze. Like everyone else lately, I thought the Fuji x100 would be absolutely perfect for my style of shooting. Well, the focus was really tough to get used to. I didn't like the menu structure. And I had trouble adapting to different software. For my workflow, it just wasn't going to work. I returned it after a week. So, I have been thinking about all this and have decided, why not just throw a 24mm 2.8 on a Rebel T1I that I already own? The high iso is great. It makes it a small, light camera. I know the software very well. Autofocus works great. It honestly isn't that much bigger than what is coming out from the alternative crowd. And I just saved about $1000.00 by not buying anything!

I hope this helps some folks that are in the same situation. I have been enjoying shooting with this setup quite a bit. Your thoughts?

Jan 19, 2012 at 03:04 PM

ViscaB
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p.1 #2 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I agree in the fact that if you use a large lens on a mirror-less camera you gain very little in terms of portability. But with a pancake lens a mirror-less camera can be a very practical solution in some cases.

Jan 19, 2012 at 03:07 PM

photoomaha
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p.1 #3 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

How do you think the Voigtlander 20mm 3.5 pancake type lens would perform on the rebel? That would take the size down a bit.

Jan 19, 2012 at 03:10 PM

mco_970
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p.1 #4 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I shot my T3i with alt lenses all last summer, and I also used the Canon 35/2 and 28/2.8 on it. It's a good setup. I ended up selling in in favor of the NEX, to get an even smaller portable kit for hiking, etc. I find the NEX is a bit less conspicuous than even a T3i for people photos - it looks like a point and shoot and people don't pay much attention to it. I can get away with more with the NEX.

I liked my T3i alot and don't have any complaints about it, just decided to rearrange my kit and off it went.

It's definitely a bargain esp. if it saves you from going down the money sucking rabbit hole of alt lenses. I love the alt lenses, though, so it's part of the addiction/hobby for me.

Jan 19, 2012 at 03:23 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #5 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

photoomaha wrote:
Just a basic ramble and my take on all the cool, hip "fuji" type cameras coming out. I am a strong Canon user, all the way back to an original rebel film camera, to Elan 7, and then the digital craze. Like everyone else lately, I thought the Fuji x100 would be absolutely perfect for my style of shooting. Well, the focus was really tough to get used to. I didn't like the menu structure. And I had trouble adapting to different software. For my workflow, it just wasn't going to work. I returned it after a week. So, I have been thinking about all this and have decided, why not just throw a 24mm 2.8 on a Rebel T1I that I already own? The high iso is great. It makes it a small, light camera. I know the software very well. Autofocus works great. It honestly isn't that much bigger than what is coming out from the alternative crowd. And I just saved about $1000.00 by not buying anything!

I hope this helps some folks that are in the same situation. I have been enjoying shooting with this setup quite a bit. Your thoughts?

You bring up an interesting question and quite a few interesting points.

The rangefinder style (and modern equivalents thereof) cameras have some real appeal for certain types of shooting. The idea is to create a very simple camera that is quite small and which works quickly and without a lot of fuss. Such a critter is useful for street shooting and some similar kinds of work.

But they aren't for everyone, and there are some philosophical differences about how to design and build one. I think that we'll see the breed evolve quite quickly in the next few years as camera companies figure out how to integrate what originally made such cameras so compelling with the ways that they could be modified given newer digital technologies.

Your points about the Fuji have been made by others. Some absolutely love the form factor, the single focal length lens, the external controls... but there have been widespread acknowledgements that the menu system isn't so swell. (This is the sort of thing that I was alluding to when I made my comment in the previous paragraph about how these cameras will evolve.)

There is a lot to be said for you idea of slapping a 24mm lens on a "rebel" style cropped sensor body. Such a camera could produce quite sufficient image quality that is equivalent in most important ways to that produced by 35mm film cameras, and the package would be quite small and quick to use.

There are other ideas floating around as well. The Canon G1X is one of the more interesting takes on how to design a camera that keeps the small size and high image quality of the rangefinders while including a number of more modern features typical of digital camera.

Dan

Jan 19, 2012 at 03:45 PM

Gochugogi
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p.1 #6 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I have a Pen EP-3 and 17 2.8 pancake. It's a bit smaller and lighter than the X100 which I also considered, and a lot smaller and lighter than my last Rebel (XTi). However it's not replacing my 7D and 5D2, but an upgrade to my S90. The S90 is a horrid little camera: no VF, slippery as a bar 'o soap, slow, awkward tiny controls with important features like FEC buried in the menus. The EP-3 is about 50% larger but is much easier to hold and has a killer EVF. Most importantly, it was truly useful external controls: I have FEC assigned to the upper thumbwheel , EC on the function button and ISO on another button. I can adjust FEC, EC and ISO without looking away from the VF and am just as fast at it as on my EOS bodies. But, yeah, Olympus menu organization is not as logical as Canon and took a lot of getting used to.

I still take my 5D2/7D for biking, hikes and travel but the EP-3 hangs out in my messenger bag when going to work, dinner and other places where I don't plan to shoot but might if an opportunity arises.

Jan 19, 2012 at 04:31 PM

dgdg
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p.1 #7 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I love my panasonic gf-1 with 20mm 1.7 pancake lens. I take it on outdoor trips along with my 5d classic. Often I will have a telephoto or wide angle on the 5d, and I have grown to hate changing the lens on the fly for a family photo. I love the panasonic pancake lens, it is amazingly sharp. If you keep the iso under 800, it is awesome. For low light indoors, I use the 5d of course. Last week on vacation - 170 photos with the panasonic, probably 30 with the 5d and I could not tell the difference between the IQ.

Jan 19, 2012 at 05:58 PM

AGeoJO
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p.1 #8 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

photoomaha wrote:
How do you think the Voigtlander 20mm 3.5 pancake type lens would perform on the rebel? That would take the size down a bit.

I don't have any experience with that particular lens but the Voigtlander 40mm f/2.0 Ultron is a great pancake lens. I believe including the lenshood, it is even more compact than the CV 20mm. I use that lens on my 5D Mark II and it delivers superb results. On a crop body though, the effective focal length maybe a tad too long for a walk-around lens, depending on your shooting preference or type of photography you do.

Jan 19, 2012 at 06:04 PM

photoomaha
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p.1 #9 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

dgdg, that is exactly one of main concerns. You say the files are great under 800. I feel like there is always a 'compromise' with the mirrorless stuff. I can easily shoot all day at 1600 with the rebel, and if I switch to black and white, wouldn't hesitate using 3200. I also really like, and am very comfortable, looking thru a viewfinder. Maybe I am old fashioned! (at 41). I just have a really hard time shooting with the LCD. The panasonic with the pancake 20mm does look like a good small package. I just get really frustrated with trying to deal with all the different menus, and hiccups of these systems. Good discussion!

Jan 19, 2012 at 06:09 PM

splathrop
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p.1 #10 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

Please let me know 6 months before the 35mm SLR market collapses like the medium format film market did. I don't want to get stuck with another bag full of obsolete stuff.

Jan 19, 2012 at 06:09 PM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #11 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I need a compact camera to do two things well, landscapes and near macro (flower) pictures. The problem I see with the dRebel is the lack of a light/small landscape lens on the order of 15 to 18 mm. One of those in combination with the 35 f2, 60 f2.8, and occasionally a 55-250 for telephoto would make a good compact system, though not a 5D with Ls.

Currently my G10 serves this purpose fairly well at ISO <= 200 and has an UW housing. I have hopes for the G1X but its too early to tell.

Jan 19, 2012 at 06:27 PM

mco_970
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p.1 #12 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

Jeff - adapted OM21 is a good landscape choice, and still very small. Gotta use manual focus, tho.

Jan 19, 2012 at 06:47 PM

chez
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p.1 #13 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

photoomaha wrote:
Just a basic ramble and my take on all the cool, hip "fuji" type cameras coming out. I am a strong Canon user, all the way back to an original rebel film camera, to Elan 7, and then the digital craze. Like everyone else lately, I thought the Fuji x100 would be absolutely perfect for my style of shooting. Well, the focus was really tough to get used to. I didn't like the menu structure. And I had trouble adapting to different software. For my workflow, it just wasn't going to work. I returned it after a week. So, I have been thinking about all this and have decided, why not just throw a 24mm 2.8 on a Rebel T1I that I already own? The high iso is great. It makes it a small, light camera. I know the software very well. Autofocus works great. It honestly isn't that much bigger than what is coming out from the alternative crowd. And I just saved about $1000.00 by not buying anything!

I hope this helps some folks that are in the same situation. I have been enjoying shooting with this setup quite a bit. Your thoughts?

Got myself an X100 on order. I want a camera I can take everywhere and able to fit into my jacket pocket. The DSLR route does not fit into any of my pockets so it becomes a pain to have with me everywhere I go. P&S image quality is too limiting for me. I see the X100 a perfect fit given it's compromises.

Jan 19, 2012 at 07:01 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #14 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

The NEX is a remarkably small setup if you use a pancake RF lens like the Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 or even the modestly larger Voigtlander 40mm f/1.4. It's indistinguishable from a P&S by most people, so great for candids and street shooting.

Jan 19, 2012 at 07:38 PM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #15 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

mco_970 wrote:
Jeff - adapted OM21 is a good landscape choice, and still very small. Gotta use manual focus, tho.

Looks like a nice lens. Manual focus doesn't bother me, especially for near infinity focus, but does it auto aperture? I have an M42 Pentax 28 mm but messing with the aperture makes it awkward for regular use. Thanks for the info.

Jan 19, 2012 at 07:49 PM

h00ligan
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p.1 #16 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

I weighed my nex carry bag today.

Kit zoom, 28 and 45 zeiss, bag, memory car holder filled, nex 5n, additional big flash for nex.

3.3 lbs

This is inside a crumpler 3mdh, small.

So volume and weight and, unless I need to print quite large, or work in very low light, the quality is easily enough.

Stopped down, the nex 5n and contax g lenses easily compete with the 5d2 and l glass. The high ISP is better than any current canon cropper. It all depends what one needs.

Edited on Jan 19, 2012 at 08:34 PM · View previous versions

Jan 19, 2012 at 08:05 PM

jamesf99
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p.1 #17 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

photoomaha wrote:
.... I am a strong Canon user, all the way back to an original rebel film camera, to Elan 7, and then the digital craze.

IOW, a pretty recent convert to photography.

Like everyone else lately, I thought the Fuji x100 would be absolutely perfect for my style of shooting. Well, the focus was really tough to get used to. I didn't like the menu structure. And I had trouble adapting to different software. For my workflow, it just wasn't going to work. I returned it after a week. So, I have been thinking about all this and have decided, why not just throw a 24mm 2.8 on a Rebel T1I that I already own? The high iso is great. It makes it a small, light camera. I know the software very well. Autofocus works great. It honestly isn't that much bigger than what is coming out from the alternative crowd. And I just saved about $1000.00 by not buying anything!

I hope this helps some folks that are in the same situation. I have been enjoying shooting with this setup quite a bit. Your thoughts?

I really do think you're missing something.

Most of us that have been at this for any length of time have wanted a small, take anywhere, use anytime, high IQ camera, and for all practical purposes they just don't exist. Up until now, the closest small, high IQ camera has been the Leica M9 (FF body only is $7k, and lenses typically run $1.5 to $5k each).

In the film days, you could get lots of small P&S cameras that were "pocketable", allowed you to choose your film (within reason), and made inconspicuous, high IQ, shooting possible. A DSLR doesn't do that. Even a X[whatever],T[whatever], or [whatever Canon offers in general] doesn't fit the bill. They never have in the digital era. I've thought about it and rejected the idea of using a small rebel/lens combo 100x in the 8+ years (been shooting digital 12+ years now). Unfortunately, it means you're often right back in the same boat and potentially carrying lots of large and heavy lenses. Sometimes I just get tired of lugging around all my gear, and I've been doing this for decades. Even my (new) F-1 (Canon's top of the line from the 80's, with lens(es)) is smaller than a rebel kit.

The new Fuji's - IMO - have done a lot for the world of photography - the x100's crazy focus issue aside.They (x10/100) may not be perfect, and are idiosyncratic to some, but many people love them. They provide exactly what many people want - extremely high IQ, small size, reasonable price(s), good-to-great lenses, etc. Take it out of your pocket and shoot great images.

Sony has the Nex series, which from everything I've read, will more than likely compete - and beat nearly everyone else out there with features (focus peaking, ISO, IQ, lens adaptability, etc.). The 24MP nex 7 will be hard to beat. And as an added bonus, I can attach my old Canon FD lenses to a Nex if I want - and I do see myself doing that.

I've been more excited by Fuji than anything that Canon has done in 5-6 years. Canon bores me; they just milk the market, play catch up with barely enough to defend their territory, and while I'm sure some of the soon to be released cameras will do a great job, I find them incremental and boring. Nothing they offer provides anything new. Who really needs 14 FPS? I don't. I have barely used 10FPS...

Personally, I don't think Canon cares about this market much. I'm unimpressed by their new G1x - though it is probably better than any previous G series in some ways (certainly not all). They're joining the fray only because they're a "me too" company now, and decided to offer "some thing" (and then hit it in the head with a slow lens to bring it down).

The market is changing, or has changed, and Canon is about to be caught flat footed. More people want to carry their cameras, and the mirror-less option will allow them to do just that. A new HTC cell phone with a 16MP camera should drive that point home. I'm 99% sure that any photography expenditures I have in this year will NOT be with Canon (I don't know what they might release, so that could change). Given what I know, my money will go to a company that understands it's about creativity, flexibility, high quality, and importantly, options, and not just protecting their turf. That rules out Canon, and Nikon too (see Nikon's tiny sensor V1/J1 offerings).

Jan 19, 2012 at 08:15 PM

Bob Kane
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p.1 #18 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

ViscaB wrote:
I agree in the fact that if you use a large lens on a mirror-less camera you gain very little in terms of portability. But with a pancake lens a mirror-less camera can be a very practical solution in some cases.

I passed by a camera schlock-house on 6th Ave in NYC yesterday and saw a NEX body with a 500mm mirror lens on it. Pretty funny.

Jan 19, 2012 at 09:11 PM

jwin
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p.1 #19 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

Would love to use 1.8x or 2x cropping on Canon tele lenses with USM-AF/IS support some day. If someone make a MFT->EF adapter with protocol conversion support today, I would really be stoked.(similar to Conurus's EF-E mount adapter would be very good start)

I don't even fancy hi-perf AF tracking and speed anywhere near Canon 1 series, simple reliable single shot AF locking would do it.

I am not looking to replace my EOS bodies, just to use it along side for occasional use.

So, Canon mirrorless with EF lens support or Canon can just release MFT-EF adapter for all I care.

Edited on Jan 20, 2012 at 06:28 AM · View previous versions

Jan 19, 2012 at 09:16 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #20 · Mirrorless craze - Am I missing something?

Honestly, I've had few problems with the AF on my X100. Maybe my expectations aren't very high, but I generally get good results. In low light, it doesn't always nail the focus on the first try, but you don't have to take an OOF photo and then check it on the screen to find out that it was OOF. The finder is generally adequate to tell if it's in focus before you take the shot - just half-depress the shutter again, and it'll probably be in focus. Doesn't take much time. Sort of like pumping the AF on a 1DIV, but different.

If you really need critical focus, then put it on a tripod and use the LCD. That's what I do with my X100 and my 1DsIII.

I'm looking forward to getting a Fujifilm X-Pro 1 to shoot alongside my X100. I've recently photographed a few Zen ceremonies with an X100 and a 1DIV. The X100 provides great IQ with 'reasonable' ambinet lighting, in a silent, small and unobtrusive package. The 1DIV with a 50/1.2L or 85/1.2L also provides great IQ, but it's huge and loud, and it's a distraction for participants of the ceremony. The X-Pro 1 with XF 35/1.4 and maybe an "Alt" fast 50 (or the XF 60/2.4) should replace the 1DIV very nicely for this application. Maybe it'll replace my 5D for 'light' travel, as well.

Of course, I won't use the X-Pro 1 for BIF. It's all a matter of having realistic expectations...

Jan 19, 2012 at 09:26 PM

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