Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

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Archive 2011 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (tra...

kosmoskatten
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p.2 #1 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Tariq: I definitely trust Fuji on optics. I am just not sure I would like to wait three-four years before they bring the lenses I want/need on the market.

The three lenses they apparently have in the pipe sure fit my bill right though.

If the camera/sensor is good enough, and will accept adapted glass then you can replace them or complement them at leisure. If not, then it will be Ricoh and Sony all over again, i.e. another good platform but limited lens selection and a seemingly endless wait.

Also, after seeing the X100 and X10 I am quite sure the user interface won't be top tier.
It would be sad if they released another awkward user interface camera that is top class in other aspects.

Dec 20, 2011 at 06:05 PM

philip_pj
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p.2 #2 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

More from the Sony camp:

"As for the flagship model, the successor to the a900, are you going to make it an orthodox SLR camera and stick to the optical viewfinder?
Nagata: At this stage I can’t comment on that..."

and

"...the viewfinder in the a900 is far and away the more amazing among interchangeable lens cameras. Is the a900 the last we’ll see of an OVF?
Nagata: Well (wry smile), what’s certain is that it’s difficult to continue producing that product at that price." (both quotes: sonyalpharumours)

Sony are certainly not the most enigmatic of the Japanese makers, in fact they are generally straight forward with marketing chat, and as they are rumoured to be producing a low end, low cost SLT A99 full framer, with likely another more expensive FF model with built-in vertical grip....one can speculate that it may also have an OVF. If so, OVF fans will have to pay for their preference.

Dec 20, 2011 at 08:24 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #3 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

philip_pj wrote:
More from the Sony camp:

"As for the flagship model, the successor to the a900, are you going to make it an orthodox SLR camera and stick to the optical viewfinder?
Nagata: At this stage I can’t comment on that..."

and

"...the viewfinder in the a900 is far and away the more amazing among interchangeable lens cameras. Is the a900 the last we’ll see of an OVF?
Nagata: Well (wry smile), what’s certain is that it’s difficult to continue producing that product at that price." (both quotes: sonyalpharumours)

Sony are certainly not the most enigmatic of the Japanese makers, in fact they are generally straight forward with marketing chat, and as they are rumoured to be producing a low end, low cost SLT A99 full framer, with likely another more expensive FF model with built-in vertical grip....one can speculate that it may also have an OVF. If so, OVF fans will have to pay for their preference.

Interesting speculation on the higher end FF coming down the road with regard to an OVF. I thought it was already a done deal that Sony would abandon the OVF entirely. The remark also points to what a great bargain the a900 is.

Dec 20, 2011 at 09:19 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #4 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

michaelwatkins wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
If Fuji goes with a leaf shutter, then they will be proprietary. Of course, the perfect example of a great proprietary leaf system is the Hasselblad V - lenses so good that one did not feel they were not using the best available. If the lens range and quality was that good, I would really have no issue going proprietary...

Sure, but it will take time for them to develop a line with real breadth. Will they have an 18, 23 (thinking X100), 28, 35, and something longer straight out of the gate? Will they all be winners, and if they don't offer a focal length that one needs or desires, then who do you turn to?

Sure. Who do you think they are...Sony!

Seriously though, given Fuji's experience in the pro market with MF and LF, I suspect they know they can't trickle lenses out like Sony has with the NEX, particularly since they are aiming the camera at the high end Pro Market form the beginning.

Given Fuji's history and their recent success with the x100, I'm not too concerned with them abandoning ship and getting stuck with a bunch of proprietary lenses. I shot a Rollei 6006 in the early 90's and even then they were not a big player with a great support network - certainly nothing like Hasselblad or Mamiya - and, unfortunately, that camera turned out to be the most unreliable piece of photo equipment I ever owned. Perhaps they finally got it right with the 6008 but by then I had already moved on to Hasselblad.

Dec 20, 2011 at 09:31 PM

douglasf13
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p.2 #5 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

I'm really hoping the Fuji will accept M lenses, registration-wise. Even if Fuji comes out with three native focal lengths that I like right away, they could still be focus by wire and not have an aperture ring, which I wouldn't be a fan of. I certainly like the idea of staying relatively camera agnostic and using the same 3 lenses on various camera body upgrades in the future, and, seeing how M lenses aren't going anywhere anytime soon, I think they're a good line to gamble on.

Dec 20, 2011 at 10:43 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.2 #6 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

To me it just makes sense to take advantage of the higher end enthusiast market that exists thanks to Leica and Leica compatible lenses. Isn't the first accessory you buy for a M9 a backup camera made by someone else?

Dec 21, 2011 at 12:10 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #7 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

michaelwatkins wrote:
To me it just makes sense to take advantage of the higher end enthusiast market that exists thanks to Leica and Leica compatible lenses. Isn't the first accessory you buy for a M9 a backup camera made by someone else?

I jest, mostly.

Seriously though, an electronic finder camera (Reid's term, I kinda like it) is a perfect adjunct to a rangefinder camera, at least for anyone that would like to get real close up with their cameras and be accurate about framing, or use wide angle lenses without depending on accessory window finders. And/or for anyone that seriously does need a backup to their M8, M9 or M10... who are they going to turn to, if they want to use the same lenses albeit on a crop camera (which the M8 folks will feel more or less at home with)? Ricoh? Sony? Why not Fujifilm?

I'm not a marketing expert but to me it seems there is more upside in hitching, loosely, one's wagon to someone else's team of enthusiasts you'd like to snag from them or at least share with them.

So my hope, probably an irrational dream, is they somehow support M lenses either through registration space and third parties (Hawk, are you there?) or directly by adopting the M mount in some way and that the sensor plays ball with rangefinder glass of all types.

PS: If their lenses for this new camera are focus by wire and perform in that regard like the X100, I will be predisposed to not liking them, although if they improve the accuracy of the AF we can talk.

Well, as I have mentioned previously, Fuji has been down that road before - hitching themselves to Nikon - and I suspect they could not make enough money just re-selling modified Nikon cameras and not benefiting from the large profit margins in selling lenses and accessories. It will certainly be interesting to see what Fuji does though. If they really do come to market with a unique sensor technology which leap frogs everyone else, I think they would be crazy to not benefit from selling proprietary lenses (that's from their point of view, not me as a consumer) for such technology. I also suspect that if Fuji released a body which was easily used with other lenses, they would end up charging a whole lot more for that body since they would have to factor in the loss of revenue from possible lens sells. Anyway, that's my cold, hard pessimistic view.

Dec 21, 2011 at 02:08 AM

michaelwatkins
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p.2 #8 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Sometimes embracing enemies leads to higher profits in the end. Sometimes not.

The solo route worked for Apple in the end, but one might argue that path might have killed them at one point if not for the return of Jobs and his direction. Is Fujifilm an Apple? I don't get that sense, but certainly your arguments that they are likely to try to go it alone sound likely for them.

If they have a sustainable advantage over the rest of the industry, and they may with their new sensor, one that can't be met by others engineering a leapfrog challenge in a mere year or two, maybe then they are more Apple than IBM.

Tangential thought: Wouldn't it be funny if their new sensor is Sony's 24MP found in the NEX?

Dec 21, 2011 at 07:16 AM

LightShow
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p.2 #9 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

michaelwatkins wrote:
Tangential thought: Wouldn't it be funny if their new sensor is Sony's 24MP found in the NEX?

Now that would be funny and sad at the same time.

Dec 21, 2011 at 07:33 AM

kosmoskatten
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p.2 #10 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

I think Fuji will definitely make their own sensors for their up and coming cameras.

I don't think Sony would outsource their flagship camera sensors to another company - I find that highly unlikely.

Fujis focus by wire plain sucks. I tried to MF the X10 and it simply wasn't workable. I can honestly say it was the worst I have tried. If the new mirrorless Fuji is AF with the same crap focus by wire as the previous cameras then the AF better be good, and the possibility to mount other MF lenses better be there too. The menu wheel on the X10 is the flimsiest yet and, not working with large fingers and impossible with any type of glove.

For optics Fuji are world class with their Fujinon lenses. For sensor technology they have the knowledge and financial muscle to hit a home run for sure. For build quality they are not in the top five. There are some very fiddly buttons on some of their cameras. A rotating wheel that feels like it is already broken off in a premium camera? C'mon.

For user interface they need to drop the excessive "artistic consumer options" and make something that is workable for people who are passionate about photography. They need to hire someone from the FM alt forum board.

At the moment Fuji is near the bottom of the list for user interface, which is surprising. They must not have many or any real photographers tied up to the R&D.
We don't need endless menus with the basic settings buried in with tons of "extras" that you might never use at all. Lose a few buttons instead and make it more intuitive.

There have been so many let downs the last couple of years that I wonder if we'll ever see a really GREAT camera coming out in the next few to come.

Dec 21, 2011 at 09:28 AM

Lotusm50
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p.2 #11 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

LightShow wrote:
"Pentax:
- Mirrorless for full-frame and 645"

Mirrorless FF
Come on Pentax, you can do it!!!!

Mirrorless 645
could be interesting, Canon does have the tech to make larger cmos sensors, maybe others do too.

Essentially, something like a digital Mamiya 7?
Yes, please.

Dec 21, 2011 at 01:19 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #12 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Henrik, your description of the X10 leads me to believe it may be a step down regarding quality of materials as compared to the x100. This also goes for the "artistic consumer options" menu but having never used an X10, I can't say for sure. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the build quality of the x100 and would probably put it in the top three.

Dec 21, 2011 at 01:23 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #13 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Lotusm50 wrote:
LightShow wrote:
"Pentax:
- Mirrorless for full-frame and 645"

Mirrorless FF
Come on Pentax, you can do it!!!!

Mirrorless 645
could be interesting, Canon does have the tech to make larger cmos sensors, maybe others do too.

Essentially, something like a digital Mamiya 7?
Yes, please.

Yep, that would be awesome.

Dec 21, 2011 at 01:33 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #14 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

michaelwatkins wrote:

Tangential thought: Wouldn't it be funny if their new sensor is Sony's 24MP found in the NEX?

This thought also crossed my mind when first word of the Fuji was released. It would be sad indeed.

It has been claimed previously that Sony's sensor division is completely separate from the camera division to the point that they will sell sensors to whoever wants them. The FF 24MP sensor is already proof of this, as is the upcoming FF 36MP sensor which will be used in the Nikon D800.

Re AF, it has to be much better in the pro Fuji than it is in the x100 - no doubt about that. Honestly, I can't really think of a successful implementation of AF where manual focus felt really great in the same lens. Focus by wire sucks but so does just about everything else as compared to a manual focus only lens. For AF, seems like the gearing has to be really high (tiny movements result in large changes) for quick AF but the same thing results in manual focus which is close to impossible to actually use.

Dec 21, 2011 at 01:45 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.2 #15 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

With any luck we won't have to wait too much longer to learn details about the sensor in the new Fuji system compact. If it happens to be 24MP sensor, we can laugh and cry simultaneously.

The X100's AF is not - what's the right word - reassuring enough. I tended to use it in semi-manual mode, using AFL to lock on focus on one spot so I could lock exposure and recompose at my leisure elsewhere. The focus target gets bigger in that mode. I found it mostly worked for me but wasn't as solid as I'd wished for a single lens "premium" camera.

On build - overall it feels solid enough but there are both design issues which detract from the impression it leaves after using it, as well as some unfortunate material choices especially that damned OK button. How in the world could they choose such a poor component for a control that would be used so often? At least it doesn't feel like it will break unlike the NEX's button, but using it is... not pleasant.

As a first example of the design style for Fujifilm, the X100 could be forgiven for a few errors or misses. You'd want to see them improve successive models based on the same general design, yet it doesn't seem as if they met that target with the X10. Hopefully this is not a bad omen for the new system compact.

Dec 21, 2011 at 03:34 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.2 #16 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Yes, the X10 has a great lens in a stylish package and it does rather well. Image quality seems great for that type of camera. AF is not that great and MF is horrible. But for casual shooting the AF is workable. The lens is very good to excellent.

It feels and handles no better than a compact though. Arguably it does not handle as well as some of the other compacts on the market and I sincerely hope that the X10 is no indication of what is to come with the mirrorless interchangeable system. That menu wheel is a joke.

I bought a heap of soft release buttons and I find that a dome shaped one was just the ticket on both the X100 and the X10 as the shutter button is somewhat recessed, or obscured by the exposure compensation dial.

X10 cool camera, lukewarm handling.

Dec 21, 2011 at 04:39 PM

douglasf13
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p.2 #17 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Seeing as how Ricoh, Pentax, Nikon, Leica and Fuji are already using some version of Sony's Exmor aps-c sensor, I guess it's possible that the new Fuji could have a Sony sensor, but who knows? The Nikon D400 has also been rumored to have the 24mp sensor.

Dec 21, 2011 at 04:52 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.2 #18 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

Yes, but it would seem unlike Fuji to launch a new camera platform and outsource sensor production as they have the means to do it themselves. Especially since they have hinted that they have a new sensor and sensor technology that will best FF camera sensors on APS-C.

But, I do my share of wishful thinking.

Dec 21, 2011 at 07:21 PM

douglasf13
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p.2 #19 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

kosmoskatten wrote:
Yes, but it would seem unlike Fuji to launch a new camera platform and outsource sensor production as they have the means to do it themselves. Especially since they have hinted that they have a new sensor and sensor technology that will best FF camera sensors on APS-C.

But, I do my share of wishful thinking.

I agree, and I hope you're right. I'm just saying, Fuji used a Sony sensor in the X100, which surprised me, too.

Dec 21, 2011 at 08:22 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.2 #20 · Round Table Interview with Eight Major Camera Makers (translation?)

When I read the translated marketing pitch for the first time ever it occurred to me that Sony could have made the same claim about it's 24MP sensor, at least in comparison with some others, so I've wondered if that was the deal with the Fujifilm announcement. Hopefully not, as it'd be great to see another sensor type arrive and that would fuel many a debate here.

PS: I also hated the aperture ring on the X100. Making things compact at the expense of utility isn't something I'm keen on.

Dec 21, 2011 at 08:48 PM

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