7D noise issue

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Archive 2011 · 7D noise issue

alundeb
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p.7 #1 · 7D noise issue

snapsy wrote:
Here's the 7D @ ISO 100 compared to its nearest competitor at 2x magnification, both shot within seconds of each other and within 1/3 stop of exposures and both set to their respective OEM landscape profiles. I'll do ISO 400 when sunshine returns here.

The "candidate" to the right is the 7D, and the crop was taken from an image in portrait orientation.

The nearest competitor is likely to be the Nikon D7000, with a sensor size and pixel density very close to the 7D.

Dec 13, 2011 at 11:38 AM

RobertLynn
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p.7 #2 · 7D noise issue

alundeb wrote:
snapsy wrote:
Here's the 7D @ ISO 100 compared to its nearest competitor at 2x magnification, both shot within seconds of each other and within 1/3 stop of exposures and both set to their respective OEM landscape profiles. I'll do ISO 400 when sunshine returns here.

The "candidate" to the right is the 7D, and the crop was taken from an image in portrait orientation.

The nearest competitor is likely to be the Nikon D7000, with a sensor size and pixel density very close to the 7D.

2x magnification...remmeber that.

Dec 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.7 #3 · 7D noise issue

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Pretty much . But if you use LR you can just set up a brush to sharpen and sharpen the bits you want.

yes, but when you use the sharpen brush where does it get it's settings? This is the silly thing with the brush, you just have a strength setting, but no idea what they are using for detail, radius etc. I thought it would use whatever settings you have employed in the details section. Set amount to zero, but choose a radius and detail and then the brush would use those at whatever strength you select. I've never come across any info of how the brush works for sharpening. What would also be useful is to have a NR brush.

I disagree about setting sharpening to zero ie having no capture sharpening. You can improve the image with capture sharpening, without adding to noise if you take some time to investigate the effects of the sliders. For the 7D I've found using

Amount: 40-55
radius: 0.6-0.8
detail: 10-15 up to ISO 800, 0-10 above that
mask: 25-35 upto ISO 800, 50-75 above that

works very well. The mask is the most important slider for making sure you don't enhance noise in textureless areas like sky. For other cameras like the 5D II I can use a bit less mask and a bit more detail.

Capture One seems to handle the 7D better than LR3 and I'm using that more and more now.

Good point pixel. I must admit I was thinking it used those settings but now I look again I think your correct. and yes an NR brush would be good as well. Maybe the next version LR wil add those.

I guess your me thorps in PS is pretty quick also. I think you may have just made me use cs5 a bit more . Just for those shots that need or want that little extra attention . (which wnt be many in may case

)

As far as on all these bodies I think it's way over blown. 1st and most important thing is get the shot. I have some stuff at 3200 on my 40D (which I don't think is very nice) that I could quite easily have hit the delete key on due to noise and non sharpness that my wife has walked past my desk and seen on screen and she has said she loves it and wants a print of it. Not one time has she ever said that's noisy .

As far as all these noisy bodies go I used a 50D for a short time (which was vilified as been soooooo noisy) and I would say it was a stop better than my 40D , and if the 7D is supposed to be better than that then I can't be that bad at all.

Dec 13, 2011 at 12:49 PM

Kafn8td
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p.7 #4 · 7D noise issue

Going from a 30D to a 7D when it first came out I was blown away by the focusing and incredible image detail. But wait what's all this noise?! (viewing at 100%, nose 6" from the screen).

So I learned to selectively reduce noise in PS. Since I mainly print, I soon realized that I didn't need to do "all" of that work. Yep, skies are noisy at 100%, but I know it won't show in my average size print, and the only people that see it on screen are other photographers with their nose against the screen.

I recently purchased a 5D and I will say that the files from it are much smoother and cleaner than the 7D, but I laugh at the focus every time I use it.

Dec 13, 2011 at 02:45 PM

vilimo
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p.7 #5 · 7D noise issue

Jeff Nolten wrote:
ImageMaster: I can see the reflection of you standing there with your 500 f4 in the owl's eye!

What owl

With all that noise I can't see a damm thing

Dec 13, 2011 at 03:00 PM

colinm
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p.7 #6 · 7D noise issue

snapsy wrote:
Here's the 7D @ ISO 100 compared to its nearest competitor at 2x magnification, both shot within seconds of each other and within 1/3 stop of exposures and both set to their respective OEM landscape profiles.

The competitor has a much more film-like and pleasing noise structure.

(That's what all the cool Nikon kids say, right?

)

Dec 13, 2011 at 03:20 PM

OntheRez
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p.7 #7 · 7D noise issue

TomKayser wrote:
Who works on a deadline wouldnt use a 7d, but a 1d. So, youre not so important as you pretend. If it takes you forever to clean noise, youre no professioneal either.
Your pictures show... [snip]

Mr. Kayser,
I'm not a particular 7D advocate, but this statement about deadlines and no one faced with them using a 7D reflects some sort of peculiar prejudice as well as no little amount of ignorance. It depends on the market, the photographer, and the capital available.

I shoot for a small (very) town newspaper. Given a chance I will always use my 1DIIn or (even better) my 1DsII over the 7D (which I picked up used in an emergency because my main cameras couldn't do the job). I was faced this fall with shooting HS football at night in what is some of the worst field lighting imaginable. It is actually so bad that players (particularly visiting) can sometimes lose the ball on a long pass or punt.

My 1DIIn pushed all the way to H even when shooting with a 135 f/2.0L couldn't stop action. The 7D with its ISO 6400 allowed my f/2.8 lenses to give me a fighting chance and has continued to do so as winter sports moved indoors to a truly dark gym.

Given the chance I would absolutely, utterly have preferred to buy a 1DIV, but there was at least a $3K price differential. In the current economic comedy, many of us are working to pay the rent with whatever tool we have available.

Yes, I have deadlines. Yes, I shoot RAW. Yes, 7D photos take more work to look - how shall we say it? - smooth enough to print. This means I spend more time in PP than with shots taken with the 1DIIn. On the other hand, without the 7D I wouldn't have even have the images.

I don't really know what "noise" is and in this entire Internet inferno, I've not once read it defined. In my direct experience of meeting newspaper deadlines, a 7D image takes more work than does one made with the 1DIIn. On the other hand, I'm shooting at dramatically higher ISO with the 7D and getting shots that would have otherwise been impossible. Would the 1DIV do a better job? Sure as h*ll hope so, given its price.

This whole argument has gone into the realm of stupid. The two cameras are not directly comparable no matter how anyone wants to argue it. Also, the basic laws of physics strongly suggest that a smaller sensor with 2.5 times as many tiny pixels is going to get more random diffraction of light - which is what I assume people call noise - than a larger sensor with larger pixels.

Clearly, skilled photographers can create amazing images with either tool. Vilification of one another based upon on model of tool used strikes me as a remarkably dumb thing to do. I am far more interested in advice in how to get my 1DIIn to perform better in low light and also what I can do to make the 7D require less PP. Even better I'd love advice on how to get my hands on a 1DIV (or even better the mythical 1Dx).

Sorry, I'm ranting. I'll stop.

Robert

Dec 13, 2011 at 06:01 PM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.7 #8 · 7D noise issue

OntheRez wrote:
TomKayser wrote:
Who works on a deadline wouldnt use a 7d, but a 1d. So, youre not so important as you pretend. If it takes you forever to clean noise, youre no professioneal either.
Your pictures show... [snip]

My 1DIIn pushed all the way to H even when shooting with a 135 f/2.0L couldn't stop action. The 7D with its ISO 6400 allowed my f/2.8 lenses to give me a fighting chance and has continued to do so as winter sports moved indoors to a truly dark gym.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. f2 @ H (3200 on the mk2n) would give you the same shutter speed as 2.8 @ 6400 .
OK I understand if you move up to both with 2.8 lenses so your point does then stack up.

As a mk2n owner I hope all this internet 'NOISE' about the 7D carries on so that I can pick up for a decent price in a few months time when I decide to make the jump

Dec 13, 2011 at 06:09 PM

OntheRez
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p.7 #9 · 7D noise issue

Ian.Dobinson wrote:
OntheRez wrote:
TomKayser wrote:
Who works on a deadline wouldnt use a 7d, but a 1d. So, youre not so important as you pretend. If it takes you forever to clean noise, youre no professioneal either.
Your pictures show... [snip]

My 1DIIn pushed all the way to H even when shooting with a 135 f/2.0L couldn't stop action. The 7D with its ISO 6400 allowed my f/2.8 lenses to give me a fighting chance and has continued to do so as winter sports moved indoors to a truly dark gym.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. f2 @ H (3200 on the mk2n) would give you the same shutter speed as 2.8 @ 6400 .
OK I understand if you move up to both with 2.8 lenses so your point does then stack up.

As a mk2n owner I hope all this internet 'NOISE' about the 7D carries on so that I can pick up for a decent price in a few months time when I decide to make the jump

Ian,
Your math is absolutely correct "f2 @ H (3200) would give the same shutter speed as 2.8 @ 6400." You are also correct in noting that (other than a 50mm f/1.4) the 135 is my fastest lens. I can only dream of a 200mm f/2.0.

A 135 on a dark football field can't really "see" the other side of the field. I'm always in motion trying to stay with the action, but we all know that Murphy never sleeps and the best shot is "over there." The 7D allows my 2.8 lenses to work (including the 70-200). Alas, I've not found anything to put my 300 f/4.0 into action though I notice that the 7D has an expanded 12800 which I have not tried. Need to do so.

Additionally, in comparing images from the 1DIIn and the 7D both shot with the 135 and both at ISO 3200, I have to give the 7D the nod for clarity. A lot of things can effect this, but I'd say the 1DIIn is a superb camera up to ISO 1600. After that, I need new technology. Also, I can't contribute at all to discussions of "noise at low ISO levels." I've never shot the 7D below 1600. For good light and slower speed, god invented the 1DsII near perfect

Robert

Dec 13, 2011 at 06:42 PM

snapsy
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p.7 #10 · 7D noise issue

alundeb wrote:
The "candidate" to the right is the 7D, and the crop was taken from an image in portrait orientation.
The nearest competitor is likely to be the Nikon D7000, with a sensor size and pixel density very close to the 7D.

Correct on all counts. Here's an ISO 400 comparison, with the color profile set to their respective OEM camera neutral. I matched the exposure as closely as possible but the mean delta is still 2.5% in the blue channel, higher in others, with the 7D's exposure brighter. Conclusion? The SNR std. dev of the blue channels are within 5% of each other, with the advantage to the D7000 even with its slightly lower exposure. The difference is measurable but probably not noticeable in practice. The D7000's noise advantage for the red and green channels is much greater, owing to its more selective CFA and higher QE. The difference here is both measurable and noticeable, particularly when you start massaging the colors in post.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Dec 13, 2011 at 07:51 PM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.7 #11 · 7D noise issue

OntheRez wrote:
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
OntheRez wrote:
TomKayser wrote:
Who works on a deadline wouldnt use a 7d, but a 1d. So, youre not so important as you pretend. If it takes you forever to clean noise, youre no professioneal either.
Your pictures show... [snip]

My 1DIIn pushed all the way to H even when shooting with a 135 f/2.0L couldn't stop action. The 7D with its ISO 6400 allowed my f/2.8 lenses to give me a fighting chance and has continued to do so as winter sports moved indoors to a truly dark gym.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. f2 @ H (3200 on the mk2n) would give you the same shutter speed as 2.8 @ 6400 .
OK I understand if you move up to both with 2.8 lenses so your point does then stack up.

As a mk2n owner I hope all this internet 'NOISE' about the 7D carries on so that I can pick up for a decent price in a few months time when I decide to make the jump

Robert

Robert I agree. Actually I'm not a great fan of the mk2n at 1600 . Maybe I need to learn its pp foibles. I know the last time I owned one I didn't give myself enough time to learn its pp needs.

Dec 13, 2011 at 10:07 PM

BluesWest
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p.7 #12 · 7D noise issue

I cannot believe this thread is still going strong 3 days and 131 posts after it was started. It's a perfect example of how the FM.com forums have deteriorated nearly to the low level of DPReview.

John

Dec 14, 2011 at 12:18 AM

BrianO
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p.7 #13 · 7D noise issue

alundeb wrote: The "candidate" to the right is the 7D, and the crop was taken from an image in portrait orientation.

Is the orientation significant? Does it affect noise levels in some way? Inquiring minds want to know.

Dec 14, 2011 at 06:33 AM

Imagemaster
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p.7 #14 · 7D noise issue

BluesWest wrote:
I cannot believe this thread is still going strong 3 days and 131 posts after it was started. It's a perfect example of how the FM.com forums have deteriorated nearly to the low level of DPReview.

John

And you are a perfect example of someone who has nothing constructive to add, but adds it anyway. Thanks so much for your contribution.

Dec 14, 2011 at 06:55 AM

alundeb
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p.7 #15 · 7D noise issue

BrianO wrote:
alundeb wrote: The "candidate" to the right is the 7D, and the crop was taken from an image in portrait orientation.

Is the orientation significant? Does it affect noise levels in some way? Inquiring minds want to know.

It does, but the effect is very small.
Please do not interpret this as I am complaining. I just say that it exists, and the effect is minimal.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/939607/0&year=2010#8876419

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/990859/2

Dec 14, 2011 at 07:38 AM

Pixel Perfect
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p.7 #16 · 7D noise issue

Canon EOS 7D 400 mm f/6.3 1/1250 sec 400 ISO +0.3 EV

Dec 14, 2011 at 12:01 PM

BennyR
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p.7 #17 · 7D noise issue

BluesWest wrote:
I cannot believe this thread is still going strong 3 days and 131 posts after it was started. It's a perfect example of how the FM.com forums have deteriorated nearly to the low level of DPReview.

John

Well that's very productive and helpful. What I can't believe is that it appears to still be on topic. That's the surprise. Actually seems to be a lot of good info coming in from several posters. I don't see that as deteriorating at all.

Dec 15, 2011 at 02:06 AM

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