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Archive 2011 · 7D noise issue
  
 
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · 7D noise issue


BluesWest wrote:
+1, Robert: I agree with your sentiments completely.

Not clear to me why the 7D has been the target of so much misguided criticism, particularly with regard to noise. I've been using one since it was released and the "noise problems" are easily dealt with in post-processing. Blue sky noise, in particular, is removed in a second (literally) by using a masked NR layer.

I do agree that the photos I've seen from the 1DIV (a $4,500 camera) have superior IQ compared to photos from the 7D (a $1,500 camera). But in my opinion the IQ of the 7D is at least
...Show more

Actually are you aware there were issues especially with early builds that did require repair. My own camera was adjusted by Canon for excess graininess at low ISO and this was their own assessment; I just asked to check it out. But I've been overall very happy with the 7D and find it does much better than my 40D at high ISO an PP'ed properly is very good at lower ISO.

But I agree blanket statements made about it are ridiculous given the proof presented in countless photos. Sensible exposure and PP will yield good results.



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:34 PM
BrianO
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · 7D noise issue


Pixel Perfect wrote:
I find with the 7D if I expose to the right I can get good results. ...The noise is easily cleaned up. I shoot most of my BIF at ISO 400 and have been happy with the results.








I like all of your shots here, but this one is my favorite. Absolutely stunning.



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:55 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · 7D noise issue


snapsy wrote:
7D w/400mm f/5.6L @ ISO 800. Notice how little noise there is in the underexposed bokeh. Took this photo a while ago but don't recall doing any NR on it.


Ok, I keep reading posts with images taken at ISO 800 or higher who claim there is no noise in their images. I don't believe it, I can find noise in 5D2 images at ISO 800. So here is an ISO 800 image of mine, the first is the full image, the second a 100% crop with default NR applied in the raw converter, and the 3rd a 100% crop of my finished image. There is noise, perhaps not bad, but noise. If you guys are getting noise free images like this then my camera is NG and has to be sent to Canon. 7D w/ 100-400.

Edit: AARG! What I'm objecting to is the claim of no noise with little or no NR at these ISOs. I believe my camera's behavior is perfectly normal. Am I wrong?





  Canon EOS 7D    EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM lens    400mm    f/6.3    1/640s    800 ISO    0.0 EV  













Edited on Dec 12, 2011 at 12:08 AM · View previous versions



Dec 11, 2011 at 11:58 PM
BrianO
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · 7D noise issue


snapsy wrote:
7D w/400mm f/5.6L @ ISO 800. Notice how little noise there is in the underexposed bokeh.


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Ok, I keep reading posts with images taken at ISO 800 or higher who claim there is no noise in their images. I don't believe it, I can find noise in 5D2 images at ISO 800.


Well, yes, there is some noise in high-ISO shots, and if you look for it you can find it even in shots at moderate ISOs. I think, though, that the noise levels people here have shown are perfectly acceptable for most uses.

I don't think your camera needs to be repaired; I think the bird looks fine, and the BG could be smoothed pretty easily in post, or left as is if you are time-constrained.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:08 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · 7D noise issue


Thanks Brian. I don't find that level of noise objectionable for the conditions I shot in. And that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


Dec 12, 2011 at 12:15 AM
BrianO
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · 7D noise issue


Jeff Nolten wrote:
...that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


I'm waiting for good weather so I can start using mine more in the field. (I've only had it for a week.)

I need to study more on noise reduction, sharpening, etc., because I don't know how to choose things like radius, pixel limits, etc. for the best results. I'm using the trial-by-error method most of the time.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:23 AM
abqnmusa
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · 7D noise issue


With a 7D much of your time is consumed running noise removal programs to try and save images.
I found grainy ISO 100 shots unacceptable
Just too many tiny noisy pixels crammed onto aps-c sensor



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:29 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · 7D noise issue


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks Brian. I don't find that level of noise objectionable for the conditions I shot in. And that was a fairly early image, #314, I'm still learning how to handle 7D images.


Unfortunately for this shot, it had high contrast and the bright area on the left meant the bird is underexposed so as not to blow out this large white area. I believe in the absence of this area, the pigeon could have taken another +1EV and would have helped noise a great deal. Alternatively this is a great candidate for flash as you could then underexpose the background while getting good exposure on the bird.

Also I think some judicious PP would improve this greatly.

Of course you will see noise at ISO 800, but it won't be detail destroying and is easily managed if you have a good working exposure to start with.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:31 AM
Gochugogi
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · 7D noise issue


I'm not any good at birds but I use a similar NR method as Tony for 7D high ISO images: Topaz Denoise 5 on background or sky and selective sharpening on important areas of the image. Works very well for both web and large prints.











Edited on Dec 12, 2011 at 12:37 AM · View previous versions



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:34 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · 7D noise issue


abqnmusa wrote:
With a 7D much of your time is consumed running noise removal programs to try and save images.
I found grainy ISO 100 shots unacceptable
Just too many tiny noisy pixels crammed onto aps-c sensor


At most I use a NR program to clean up a clear blue sky and it takes about 10s including the mask. I've usually got the image pretty good in LR3 or Capture One and if I can't I'll probably ditch it as I've stuffed up the exposure.

You may well have had a dud camera, but clearly most don't. At ISO 200 I only use 4 NR on luminance channel, 8 on chrominance data at most, same as my 1D III and 5D II.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:36 AM
 

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jorkata
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · 7D noise issue


The 7D is one very special camera.
Itís very demanding - always requiring good exposure, lots of hand-holding, involved and committed noise reduction & sharpening, etc..

To make the story short, I couldn't take it and we broke up after just three days of ownership.
It was me, not the camera .

Good luck to those with more patience than me.



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:47 AM
BrianO
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · 7D noise issue


jorkata wrote:
The 7D is one very special camera. Itís very demanding - always requiring...lots of hand-holding, involved and committed... To make the story short, I couldn't take it and we broke up... It was me, not the camera...


Hmmm. I think I'll name my 7D "Linda." (A long story I won't go into here. Let's just say I took a vow of celibacy some years ago. )



Dec 12, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · 7D noise issue


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Unfortunately for this shot, it had high contrast and the bright area on the left meant the bird is underexposed so as not to blow out this large white area. I believe in the absence of this area, the pigeon could have taken another +1EV and would have helped noise a great deal. Alternatively this is a great candidate for flash as you could then underexpose the background while getting good exposure on the bird.

Also I think some judicious PP would improve this greatly.

Of course you will see noise at ISO 800, but it won't be detail destroying and
...Show more

Thanks Pixel. Context is everything, I should add that my intent was to capture these guys, the fabled San Diego wild parrots who landed in my tree. I've seen them fly by over the last 20 years but never close enough to get lens on them. Perhaps not the greatest image but who knows if they'll ever visit my yard again. The pigeon just happened to be sitting in the same tree.

Quote: "Also I think some judicious PP would improve this greatly."

I you'd care to offer suggestions on the PP I'd greatly appreciate it. Cheers.








Dec 12, 2011 at 01:09 AM
RobertLynn
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · 7D noise issue


BluesWest wrote:
+1, Robert: I agree with your sentiments completely.

Not clear to me why the 7D has been the target of so much misguided criticism, particularly with regard to noise. I've been using one since it was released and the "noise problems" are easily dealt with in post-processing. Blue sky noise, in particular, is removed in a second (literally) by using a masked NR layer.

I do agree that the photos I've seen from the 1DIV (a $4,500 camera) have superior IQ compared to photos from the 7D (a $1,500 camera). But in my opinion the IQ of the 7D is at least
...Show more
Funny, shortly after BrianO tried to make me out to be a son-of-a-gun, several people have all chimed in, pretty much saying what I've said. Then on top of that, imagemaster comes in and posts some absolutely amazing photography here to further solidify my point.

The 7D is an outstanding piece of equipment. While it's no D3x, 1D4 or 1DX, or even a 5D2/1Ds3 in the IQ department, it packs a hell of a punch.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Actually are you aware there were issues especially with early builds that did require repair. My own camera was adjusted by Canon for excess graininess at low ISO and this was their own assessment; I just asked to check it out. But I've been overall very happy with the 7D and find it does much better than my 40D at high ISO an PP'ed properly is very good at lower ISO.

But I agree blanket statements made about it are ridiculous given the proof presented in countless photos. Sensible exposure and PP will yield good results.


I read about a few people on the forums having to send them in. While I've never seen a service announcement or anything like that to address any "known" issue with the camera. I'll see people who buy the camera off of the shelf like yesterday, and say that it's one of the early ones that is part of a "known" issue.

I have one that is just a few months old, and get pretty good use out of it. However, I have seen quite a few people on this forum alone that have had hardware issues. That's why when I say about people complaining about it, I include the "caveat" of hardware issue not-withstanding.

Jeff Nolten wrote:
Ok, I keep reading posts with images taken at ISO 800 or higher who claim there is no noise in their images. I don't believe it, I can find noise in 5D2 images at ISO 800. So here is an ISO 800 image of mine, the first is the full image, the second a 100% crop with default NR applied in the raw converter, and the 3rd a 100% crop of my finished image. There is noise, perhaps not bad, but noise. If you guys are getting noise free images like this then my camera is NG and has
...Show more

Whoever is telling you that 800 is noiseless is just as ridiculous as someone saying it's unusable at higher ISO's.

Any sensor will deliver some noise that you can find, even at low ISO. It's just the nature of the beast. I think though, that relative noise (meaning what we've had a few years ago to now) is pretty good on it at 800.

abqnmusa wrote:
With a 7D much of your time is consumed running noise removal programs to try and save images.
I found grainy ISO 100 shots unacceptable
Just too many tiny noisy pixels crammed onto aps-c sensor


Yeah, because it takes like a whole second to do some NR to an image in the same workflow as sharpening or other adjustments.

jorkata wrote:
The 7D is one very special camera.
Itís very demanding - always requiring good exposure, lots of hand-holding, involved and committed noise reduction & sharpening, etc..

To make the story short, I couldn't take it and we broke up after just three days of ownership.
It was me, not the camera .

Good luck to those with more patience than me.


I don't even understand this statement..I don't always have "good exposure", or a lot of "hand-holding" and any committed, dedicated noise reduction or sharpening to it, and get results that work just fine.

As far was work flow, I'm damn lazy when it comes to it, and if I'm getting pleasing results...



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:30 AM
BrianO
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · 7D noise issue


RobertLynn wrote:
Funny, shortly after BrianO tried to make me out to be a son-of-a-gun, several people have all chimed in, pretty much saying what I've said.


It's not what you said; it's how you said it.



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:37 AM
RobertLynn
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · 7D noise issue


BrianO wrote:
It's not what you said; it's how you said it.


I'll give you that "context" can be missed in type, but just about anyone on the planet that has more than 30 seconds of interaction with me knows that I'm the least malicious person on the planet. I believe that I've never, ever made a claim that I was better at anything than anyone at any given point of the day.

Perhaps I could've worded it in a lengthy fashion to say something along the lines of,

"given the advancement of modern day sensors, resolution, noise handling and noise reduction in post processing, if you're finding ISO1000 from this given camera unusable, you'll have a difficult time finding anything acceptable from most modern cameras, with possibly the exception of on the most expensive cameras that Nikon and Canon have to offer".

However, most of us are adults, and most of us know that I'm not some dick trying to talk people or their work down. Rather than offer a rambling sentence of drek, I called it. Just like I seen it. If I ruffled a few feathers, that's okay, whatever has to happen can happen.




Dec 12, 2011 at 01:42 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · 7D noise issue


Imagemaster wrote:
Oh yeah, 7D is really bad for noise. It takes no time at all in PP to handle noise, when there is any to handle.

First three shots are at ISO 1600 and last one at ISO 800.



Your excellent bird photographs illustrate several things, I think:

1. It is always worth it to ask a poster to provide an actual sample of an image with the "noise problem." More often than not there is an objective explanation of the issue. Sometimes there is a technical cause... and sometimes the person is simply obsessing over something that won't even be visible in the final photographic output in electronic or print form.

2. Speaking of which, while I can see noise in your bird photographs in the smooth gradient background areas, I consider that a total non-issue. There is nothing wrong with a very small amount of noise, and there are even valid arguments that it can bee a good thing.

3. Having shot a full frame camera at 800-3200 ISO, there will be visible noise, and even a bit more so on crop. But post-process noise reduction can deal with this to a great extent. (And notice that the term is noise reduction, not noise elimination.

Regarding criticism of camera performance - 7D or others - there is a lot of noxious and silly spewage on camera forums in general. I suspect that a lot of it - though perhaps not quite all - may come from people who focus too much on looking for "problems" that turn out to not really be problems at all in actual photography and actual photographs.

Dan



Dec 12, 2011 at 01:44 AM
galenapass
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · 7D noise issue


I had a 7D and a MKIII for comparison during a 3 week period. After a lot of test shots at a nearby pond I found the 7D noise to be too objectionable when compared with the MKIII. Mostly I could not personally tolerate the noise in what has been termed smooth gradient backgrounds, e.g., sections of the photo which contained sky were quite noisy even at 200 ISO. I did resize images when making the comparison. My conclusion was to sell the 7D and save money towards a MKIV while shooting with the MKIII. Obviously 7D shots can be made to look better with PP; however, I prefer save my PP time for when I really need it such as shooting at > 1600 ISO. The amount of 7D noise at lower ISO, while fixable as demonstrated above, limits the use of this camera for me when shooting in low light situations where even higher ISO is required. I am going to watch patiently and hopefully for the next generation of crop cameras.



Dec 12, 2011 at 02:38 AM
Imagemaster
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · 7D noise issue


I found less noise in the Mk3 images, but at the same time found them to look a bit more "smeared" than those of the 7D. Probably because the noise is suppressed more inside the Mk3? Besides, for my type of photography, I prefer the extra reach of the 7D.


Dec 12, 2011 at 02:52 AM
galenapass
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · 7D noise issue


For my needs I agree about the reach, which is why I really wanted to like the 7D. In fact, I may give the 7D another shot (so to speak) because I bought a 2X III TC and I don't like the results that come out of it on my 500mm. A 7D + 1.4X would more than likely perform much better.


Dec 12, 2011 at 02:58 AM
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