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Archive 2011 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors
  
 
RobDickinson
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p.3 #1 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


2 or 3 stops is a lolz.

Sensors are already 30-40% efficient or more. 3 stops is 8 times more efficient....



Dec 04, 2011 at 08:38 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #2 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


"Sensors are already 30-40% efficient or more"

Can I clarify something about this please (be gentle with me please, maths was always my weak spot!). Does this mean then that assuming modern sensors (for the sake of simplicity) are 30% efficient, a one stop improvement in sensitivity would result in a sensor able to record 60% of the light falling on it. If this is true, as there is only 40% light wastage, the 60% sensor could only be improved upon by less than one stop.

In other words, does this all mean that we can never, ever, have a digital camera which has a sensor sensitivity 2 stops or more efficient than our current generation of cameras?

No doubt my reasoning has several flaws in it, but I would appreciate being put right.



Dec 04, 2011 at 09:15 AM
alundeb
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p.3 #3 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


David, I don't see anything wrong in your reasoning.

The best sensors today (like in the Nikon D3s) are already above 50%.



Dec 04, 2011 at 11:41 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #4 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


alundeb

"The best sensors today (like in the Nikon D3s) are already above 50%"

Wow, that's quite depressing. I'm very grateful for the high ISO low light capabilites of the 5D2, but the thought that low light sensitivity won't just go on getting better and better indefinitely is a bit of a shock. I did have a fantasy that one day I would be photographing stars with a hand held camera, but guess that is unreasonable!

If sensor sensitivity will effectively max out in a generation or two I suppose that leaves impetus for better quality very fast primes, which is a more cheerful thought!



Dec 04, 2011 at 02:15 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #5 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


David Baldwin wrote:
In other words, does this all mean that we can never, ever, have a digital camera which has a sensor sensitivity 2 stops or more efficient than our current generation of cameras?

No doubt my reasoning has several flaws in it, but I would appreciate being put right.


There are improvements beyond quantum efficiency that have the potential to further increase light sensitivity/conversion. The next big thing will be bayer sensors with monochromatic pixels included in the RGB matrix. Sony discusses this technology in the following presentation, calling this part of their "Super Reality" sensor technology. They document a 2.4db improvement in SNR with the new bayer arrangement, which is close to a full stop.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/Semiconductor/2011_2.pdf



Dec 04, 2011 at 04:12 PM
Ralph Conway
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p.3 #6 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


A 5D2 with 7D AF swapped in and 18MP and 2/3 stop better and everything else the same would be incredibly lame after four years IMO and I think it might flop (one can get the speed and no line skipped video in a 7D2 or jsut the video in a 70D and with the way Canon pricing has been going maybe it costs $3000 and you can sell a 5D2 for $1600 so you need to spend $1400 to get that and you will then have that for the next four years. lame.

As far I remembered thousends of people called the 5D MK II improvements "lame" three years ago.
It developed to one of (if not) the most successfull body in itīs range and even kicked away all competitors and 1Ds MK III from itīs throne.

I honestly bet the D800 specs would crush that.).

Fine. I am with you. It would give me the chance to get the advantadges of Nikon gear, too. And it would force Canon to feed us with some more. Thatīs great, isnīt it?

If it had your 3 stops better that would be something although still quite a shame to be stuck at 3.9fps for only 18MP, but believe me the 1DX just is not going to be 3 stops better SNR middle gray than the 5D2. Heck even Canon marketing is only saying 2!! And even they have already admitted that some deal of that is simply due to internal jpg engine NR improvements!

That is new to me as far as I remember 51K should have comparabel quality than 6.400 has had in 1D MK. I shoot in raw and there is no in camera NR that could not be done (better) in raw development. But anyway: Two stopps are realy great, right? That would mean 12.800 without rework, 25.000 with some for the 5D MK II follow up. That IS great.

if we are very lucky it could conceivably have 3 stops better usable DR range but there are some early worrisome signs that canon won't match the sony sensor deep shadow cleanliness
as for d700, if all you do is tripod work yeah i'd take the 5D2 any day over a D700 (and even moreso if you do video work )


I owned a monopod, used it one time and sold it. I had a tripod, too. Used it three times and sold it.
And again: The D700 is great! I would have and use one if it would give me "some" more than 6 year old standard of competitors in resolution. And if any announced D800 will offer me, I will be glad and check it, too.





Dec 04, 2011 at 04:20 PM
Ralph Conway
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p.3 #7 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


RobDickinson wrote:
2 or 3 stops is a lolz.

Sensors are already 30-40% efficient or more. 3 stops is 8 times more efficient....


What prevents sensors to be efficient for 200% - 300% or more?

Even lenses are not fixed to 1:1. The theoretical highest aperture possible is 0.5 as far I read.
But lenses are physicaly fixed. Why sensors should be? They are electronics and do not care about incoming light alone. Any night sight gear enhances the incoming light.



Dec 04, 2011 at 04:33 PM
AJSJones
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p.3 #8 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


alundeb wrote:
David, I don't see anything wrong in your reasoning.

The best sensors today (like in the Nikon D3s) are already above 50%.

Just to be clear here, I think the effiiciency referred to is simply the "quantum efficiency" - the number of electrons stored per photon landing on a sensel. The maximum is 1 (i.e, 100%). However, one could increase the storage capacity (full well capacity) or somehow decrease the read noise and both could improve SNR without changing the "efficiency".



Dec 04, 2011 at 04:38 PM
Ralph Conway
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p.3 #9 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


AJSJones wrote:
Just to be clear here, I think the effiiciency referred to is simply the "quantum efficiency" - the number of electrons stored per photon landing on a sensel. The maximum is 1 (i.e, 100%). However, one could increase the storage capacity (full well capacity) or somehow decrease the read noise and both could improve SNR without changing the "efficiency".




I guess we must not fear now a sensel is small enough, just to catch "one".


Edited on Dec 04, 2011 at 04:45 PM · View previous versions



Dec 04, 2011 at 04:43 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #10 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


AJSJones wrote:
Just to be clear here, I think the effiiciency referred to is simply the "quantum efficiency" - the number of electrons stored per photon landing on a sensel. The maximum is 1 (i.e, 100%). However, one could increase the storage capacity (full well capacity) or somehow decrease the read noise and both could improve SNR without changing the "efficiency".


Increasing full-well capacity without a commensurate increase in quantum efficiency results in a lower base ISO (and increased SNR at base ISO) but doesn't increase SNR for high ISO. It does however increase dynamic range for High ISO. There isn't much room left for read noise improvements either - he 1D IV is already at less than 2 e- of read noise at its highest ISO.



Dec 04, 2011 at 04:44 PM
 

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Ralph Conway
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p.3 #11 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Folks, ...
I am not a physician, neither any studied cientist.

40 years ago, I watched "star trek" and was not able tuo understand, why my parents start laughing, when Cpt. Kirk talked to Spock using hi comunicator.
"Taht will never be!" my parents gave me a good advice for future. I just saw a "Dallas/Denver Clan" last week and I laughed abot their cellulars.

In the beginning 90s working for Commodore I saw the first digital cameras at video resolution. At the end of the last decade I restarted to photograph and did ISO 6400 b/w shots (pushed). In 2003 I bought my first 6MP DSLR because there was no longer any difference in quality to film. It went up to ISO 800 (horrible). Half a year later itīs follow up offered 1600 - better as film ever could (cropped).

I would say todays Iso 3200 (5D MK II/D700) in fullframe is comparable to ISO 800 in Film times at a much higher resolution (even 12K is).

That is 3 years ago after a 5 year development.

Who of you really wants to tell me anything about what is impossible to see next year?
You should think about that what we get today is already years old and was hidden in the cellar to make profit with old stuff!

Have a great evening
Ralph



Dec 04, 2011 at 05:02 PM
halie
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p.3 #12 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Darn, just when I was going to ask for advice regarding my knee. Old ski injuries you know, they never seem to go away.


Dec 04, 2011 at 05:31 PM
AJSJones
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p.3 #13 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


snapsy wrote:
Increasing full-well capacity without a commensurate increase in quantum efficiency results in a lower base ISO (and increased SNR at base ISO) but doesn't increase SNR for high ISO. It does however increase dynamic range for High ISO. There isn't much room left for read noise improvements either - he 1D IV is already at less than 2 e- of read noise at its highest ISO.

Hence my multiple uses of "could"! The future improvements will be minor gains - until a new technology comes along or the laws of physics are amended



Dec 04, 2011 at 06:05 PM
skibum5
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p.3 #14 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Monito wrote:
I didn't buy my 5D for fps and I wouldn't buy a 5D Mark III for fps. It is rather near the bottom on the feature set I would consider for a 5D III.


I don't think ANYBODY bought the 5D2 for the fps.

(but that is not a sign that Canon should think it is not something missed by good numbers just because nobody checks fps as a reason they like 5 series! Their surveys seems a bit off to me. They sort of circularly reinforce things to stay as is, regardless.)



Dec 04, 2011 at 07:35 PM
skibum5
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p.3 #15 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


eosfun wrote:
You bet! And having EOSfun


hmmm just don't have too, too much eosfun at vegas though, because the saying "what happens in vegas, stays in vegas" can also refer to your money (....being all lost and staying behind in vegas ) lest you find yourself selling off your remaning eosfun for a ticket back home (by tramp steamer)



Dec 04, 2011 at 07:38 PM
skibum5
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p.3 #16 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Ralph Conway wrote:
I sayd: "I would be happy", skibum.
That was a fiction about giving the 5D X the 1D Xs sensor.
I did not see one follow up the last 7 years that does not give us one further stop at higher resolution. In 5D => 5D MK II it has been ("unbelieveable" great) 1,5 stops by encreasing the resolution from 12MP to 21MP.


fair enough, if they did make a 5D3 with your specs and thus with a true 3stops better that would be cool and I would be super very happy as well despite the rebel-like body speed, 3 stops would be quite something all by itself, so in the pretend world where this happens I will agree to agree with you





That is new to me as far as I remember 51K should have comparabel quality than 6.400 has had in 1D MK. I shoot in raw and there is no in camera NR that could not be done (better) in raw development. But anyway: Two stopps are realy great, right? That would mean 12.800 without rework, 25.000 with some for the 5D MK II follow up. That IS great.


yeah, but i still doubt it will be 2 stops better




Edited on Dec 06, 2011 at 01:51 AM · View previous versions



Dec 04, 2011 at 07:45 PM
skibum5
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p.3 #17 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


halie wrote:
Darn, just when I was going to ask for advice regarding my knee. Old ski injuries you know, they never seem to go away.


I'm not a physician either, BUT I don't play one on TV either.
So how can I be of assistance?
If you hit it with a hammer does it make the old injury seem to disappear from your mind?
(and if you are thinking well what about the pain from the hammer, how will I forget that, well.... that's what sledge hammers are for!)

sometimes I impress even myself, I think I smell the next Nobel in medicine coming my way....



Dec 04, 2011 at 07:51 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #18 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Since when did the stop become the universal measure of well everything?

I'm going to my boss on Monday and demanding a 1 stop pay increase.



Dec 04, 2011 at 09:38 PM
Chengdu Nanhai
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p.3 #19 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Since when did the stop become the universal measure of well everything?

I'm going to my boss on Monday and demanding a 1 stop pay increase.

A full stop increase is to double, so perhaps your demand is a bit too rash?



Dec 04, 2011 at 09:54 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #20 · New 5D Mark 3 Rumors


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Since when did the stop become the universal measure of well everything?

I'm going to my boss on Monday and demanding a 1 stop pay increase.


If you do, I expect you'll be ejected through the aperture by which you entered the office at least one stop faster than you entered. But perhaps his reach won't be sufficient and you'll be able to zoom out before he can execute his prime plan...



Dec 04, 2011 at 10:38 PM
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