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Archive 2011 · One month shooting with the System 1
  
 
AndreasE
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · One month shooting with the System 1


I don't want to flood this forum with photos of the little J1 and V1 with the 4 CX lenses. On October 21st, I got my System 1 set. A bit more than a month has passed since then. 4.000 photos later, I went from a so-so attitude to a series of upward surprises in the versatility, speed and image quality of the little cameras.

In case you are interested in photos shot with the little cams, please take a look at:
www.pbase.com/andrease/nikonj1

Many files are stored in 2 resolutions (most often 900 and 1920 pixel wide)
Filenames represent image size in the longer dimension
-crop (=100% crop)
-900
-1920
(none) = full size

All files are processed from RAWs, with usually very few adjustments in CNX2.

Some early experiences are written up in a 2 part article in my blog.

To sum it up:
More fun than expected (way more fun)
IQ sufficiently high to enjoy photos at usual sizes like printed in letter size or 1920x1200 on 27" Monitors.
Can not compete with any Nikon DSLR at pixel level.
ISO 400 seems to be upper end for no-brainer usage, ISO 800 is ok, 1600 needs care
It is fast, fast, fast.
Not bad for a generation "one" product
Looking forward to the other lenses coming (fast primes please)
Does great with close-up lenses and macro due to its DOF
The quality of VR is leaps and bounds above the VR of DX and FX lenses. No problem to shoot 1/40 sec with 300mm equivalent or 1/5 sec with 80mm.
AF is mostly spot on, due to the way it is build. No front/back focus issues.
You can save lots of weight with the tripod. Any tripod will do (vibrationless exposure). Dared in the past to extend the middle column? Use it with confidence.
My favorite lenses of the 4 CX lenses is the 30-110mm. It combines the small size advantage possible by the small sensor, has excellent IQ (CA, reflections, sharpness, VR, vignetting ) and is relatively cheap. Second place: 10-30mm. It has VR (the pancake lacks), is almost as fast as the pancake at 10mm (f3.5 vs. f2.8). Low light shots with VR are better than with the pancake. VR is needed for smooth video. Then comes the 10-100mm which is an excellent video lens. Too big for pure photography. A bit lower IQ on the long end vs. the 30-110mm. Last lens: 10mm pancake: small. Thats it.

Reflecting back, I made an error to assess the sytem before using it. Give it a day or so time and experience for yourself before judging. It's about the experience not the data points. In my case it was an upward journey.

regards,
Andy




Nov 25, 2011 at 11:37 AM
Mark_L
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · One month shooting with the System 1


How does the af deal with moving subjects?


Nov 25, 2011 at 12:18 PM
DGC1
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · One month shooting with the System 1


Very impressive. I'm intrigued by this camera. I want to see what it does with other lenses when they release the adapter so it will accept the F mount lenses. Thanks for sharing.


Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM
AndreasE
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · One month shooting with the System 1


Mark_L wrote:
How does the af deal with moving subjects?


Simple answer: Good to excellent (as long there is sufficient light)

Long answer - 4 levels to consider

Level 1: Readiness. Shared by all mirrorless cameras. Power usage is too high (due to monitor, EVF). To preserve energy, usually camera is turned off while waiting for a shot. Then the ML cameras need time to get back on (System 1 included). DSLRs are faster ready-to-shoot. One DSLR battery holds easily one day in standby, no chance with ML cameras. Slows things down a bit.

Level 2: Initial aquisition: Ok, but slower than class leading DSLRs like the D3 Series. Check the last chapter in page 1 of my System 1 story. Exception: If shooting birds in flight with blue background, almost on par with D3.

Level 3: Continous lock-on: Excellent. Really excellent.

Level 4: User controls: Bad. It it way faster to change AFS to AFC and back on the D3 or the number of AF focus fields. Takes fractions of seconds. The current generation (J1, V1) is not meant to provide fast accss to those settings in case you would like to change them. Not a systemic issue of CX cameras, just happens to be the case for the 2 current models. Might change in the future.

Andy



Nov 25, 2011 at 01:01 PM
AndreasE
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · One month shooting with the System 1


DGC1 wrote:
Very impressive. I'm intrigued by this camera. I want to see what it does with other lenses when they release the adapter so it will accept the F mount lenses. Thanks for sharing.

Manual adapters for different mounts are already around. The FT-1 adpater from Nikon stands out for AF, VR and exposure control. Might be delayed into Q1 2012.

Andy



Nov 25, 2011 at 01:02 PM
Mark_L
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · One month shooting with the System 1


Thanks Andreas. I really hope we some of this VR and focus tech in the new slrs if it's possible.


Nov 25, 2011 at 02:42 PM
Taoguy
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · One month shooting with the System 1


Andy,
I've had the V1, w/ 10mm, 10-30mm, and the 30-110 & flash for about three + weeks as well. I agree with your statements, I am quite surprised with the metering system and the IQ all around. While shooting in difficult lighting with my D3x my wife shot right beside me with the V1. I was bracketing while she shot straight program and 1/3 stop under. Her shots were spot on, even allowing the shadows more definition w/o blowing the highlights.

Indoors my fav lens is the pancake 10mm, works better w/o flash, the camera is best shooting natural light IMO,
even indoors with flash, unless shooting manual, the camera jumps up to a higher ISO than I prefer. That might be my improper use at said time, need more time with it using flash.

Video is quite good as well, I'm not a video guy but what I have shot is great. The slow motion is more for fun, the slow motion and pic setting could be great if the length of video was 10 sec vs 4. I 've shot some photos of aircraft using the high speed 10 fps mode, again the system did quite well. In the next month I'll take it with on some wildlife treks now that I have a comfort level with the system.

Over-all the camera is now my P&S, and at Thanksgiving dinner it was the go-to camera, my wife has the J1 coming.
It certainly has a very quick focusing system, very little of that delay causing missed shots, however it does take a little more learning than just point and shoot if one wants to maximize the capability of the V1. It also has more manual features than I expected allowing additional over-ride. My lens pref order would be the 10-30, 10mm, and then 30-110 at this point. In another month that might change.

Probably a tad too expensive is the only real negative I think Nikon will have to figure out. Everyone that saw me shooting with the V1 kind of shrugged when I shared the cost, esp when they are shooting w/D7000 kit and they have less money in it then I do with my set up. It is a great camera but not up to the D7000, but the size was why I purchased it, along with hoping the IQ would be good enough and it has exceeded my expectations there. With all three lens and the flash it fits into a pack smaller than my D3x, makes the old bones smile. The price could be the downfall for sure. Gerard



Nov 25, 2011 at 06:57 PM
posten
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · One month shooting with the System 1


Thans for your detailed thoughts, it seems like it exceeded your expectations. I'm also in the 'dubious' camp.

I'd be interested more in your review if you didn't look at the 1 system in a vacuum. Have you compared it to a NEX-5N or a M4/3rds cam? If the 1 system were the only thing on the market it might be interesting but with so many other better options I can't see the appeal. Those other systems beat it on all counts that matter to me, lens choice, image quality, ergonomics and cost. The 1 system doesn't have an edge in any of those, so other than brand loyalty why would one choose it?



Nov 26, 2011 at 02:13 AM
Taoguy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · One month shooting with the System 1


Posten,

The other systems may all be better in some manner or another. I have only had hands on a GH-2 but not enough to give any feed back, though a friend swears by it. The V1 is not intended to replace any of my DSLR bodies, I have several P&S, Panasonics, Canon, and Nikon, they perform well, however this is the only mirrorless I own.

This was a purchase made on a whim, I thought it would be similar to the Canon G12, or better, I like it better. The only logical reason for my purchasing this camera was because it was different, and thats not logical.

It still remains a high cost compared to whats in the market.
Gerard



Nov 26, 2011 at 06:12 AM
AndreasE
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · One month shooting with the System 1


posten wrote:
Thans for your detailed thoughts, it seems like it exceeded your expectations. I'm also in the 'dubious' camp.

I'd be interested more in your review if you didn't look at the 1 system in a vacuum. Have you compared it to a NEX-5N or a M4/3rds cam? If the 1 system were the only thing on the market it might be interesting but with so many other better options I can't see the appeal. Those other systems beat it on all counts that matter to me, lens choice, image quality, ergonomics and cost. The 1 system doesn't have an edge in
...Show more

@Posten,

Why the System 1? This question is hard to answer.

First, it depends how you personally justify your investment. Each one of us have a different reference point here. Second point: Holding off the investment means - no photos for the period until you intend to join the band wagon. Hmmm . If you feel uncomfortable with the current price point, or your view is that other systems fit better to your purpose - hold off.


/Crystal ball = on

It would have been foolish for Nikon to introduce a new System (I really mean system in the sense of a 10+ years perspective) with the cheapest possible bodies at the beginning. It is hard to walk the market up from the bottom end and subsequently introduce only more expensive bodies. If I would be in Nikon, the J1/V1 marks somehow the midpoint of the mid term range of cams. By choosing the 2.7x crop sensor, Nikon has a price leadership in production against the larger sensor ML manufacturers, which we can use twofold. First option: Introduce a camera at a price range which gives Nikon margin but not the competitors. Nikon might eventually do this step, but I would not expect it soon - it is not their style. Second option is to keep prices high and use the higher margin vs. competitors to either earn more, or enjoy a higher R&D budget for out-innovating competitors with for instance more lenses, or better cameras or better sensor designs. Nikon is normally in for the long run.

My personal decision to shell out more than 2000 USD for all 7 pieces was that I have the feeling that Nikon did the basics of the System 1 right and the System 1 platform has great potential in many directions. Similar to the introduction of the Nikon F body back in 1960. The value and network effect comes over time - and they come big. Same here - which is the biggest differentiator to the other ML manufacturers. Nikon has more network effects to benefit from. Bigger established customer base, it has TOTAL control on the new N1 mount (people tend to underestimate this super important aspect of corporate strategy) and if my initial 4000 photos are an indication, AF performance with DX and FX lenses will be a lot of fun. (and I hope very fast).

I will get the FT-1 adapter as soon as it comes out. I tried really hard to get one for this trip to Kenya. I learned that most of the shown FT-1 adapters by Nikon were only mock-ups so far. So we need to be a bit patient. If I counted correctly, 60 different AFS/AFI lenses will work with the FT-1 with AF and where available also with VR. Nikon would be foolish to not use this as unique selling proposition. According to Roland Vink's list, Nikon sold more than 25 mio lenses in this category. A decent size market to leverage for a new system.

Another option in my crystall ball is the introduction of a second sensor size - similar to the DX/FX co-existence in the DSLR space. The mount seems to be big enough to cope with a larger sensor. Will it be a DX size or a yet to be announced EX? I don't know. This would give Nikon a nice market segmentation strategy to move the CX line more to the value end of the market (Hurting many of the ML competitors who have choosen to use a bigger, more expensive sensor) and grabbing a higher share of the higher priced market with the "EX" sensor system, but same mount.

That Nikon is serious about the mass market dimension of this new system can be seen, that more than 8.000 people are manufacturing basically System 1 bodies and lenses. No company would do this just for a single product introduction - there is a long term component in it as well.

/Crystallball = off

To cut a long story short.

The System 1 has a lot of future potential, the initial products are super cute, my investment protection seems to be better here than with other ML systems, and many of my existing AFS lenses will be of added utility (this is the benefit of the network effect for a customer). The utility of already purchased products grow with each new additional product you acquire. Nikon has probably the longest track record in the photo industry with the f-mount system.

I joined now, but it was very much based on this longer view (10+ years) to justify the step.


regards,
Andy


Edited on Nov 26, 2011 at 11:51 AM · View previous versions



Nov 26, 2011 at 11:07 AM
 

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nikt
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · One month shooting with the System 1


The CX cameras are excellent, though the price needs some re-adjustment.

The J1/V1's are small and fast. The lenses are smaller than competing models and this is the big point of htese cameras. Every little bit counts and the simply interface aims perfectly at the market they are aiming at.

The cameras are NOT designed for the enthusiast (or most FM'ers )


Ergonomics and Nex-5? Um, no.
Image quality, excellent.
The large lens though makes the whole camera unbalanced, and the more I use it, the more I dislike it. Quite frankly, the interface is aweful.

The Olympus Pens. Excellent. Good balance of size and features. The quality is very good. For the moment I won't part with our EP-1 and pancake lens. The price is a real winner.

When we talk about lens selection, it has to be remembered that ALL manufacturers has limited lenses at their first release. The hope for the Nikon for me is a Nikon 1 P7100 type bosy and a few fast primes to go with it. Not f2.8, but say f1.8.



Nov 26, 2011 at 11:29 AM
AndreasE
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · One month shooting with the System 1


2 more comments:

1) Why the J1, why the V1?
Let me answer it in this way. Besides price, the J1's biggest advantage is the smaller size. Especially with the pancake lens I would consider it the "only" System 1 combination which fits easily into the pockets of trousers - and easily gets out as well. The V1's EVF makes the V1 a bit clumsier for this purpose.

Some differences between J1 and V1

V1 is bigger than J1 - THose for a compact cam will chosse the J1
The V1 has not built-in flash. The extra flash is bigger, but an extra item to carry around
The V1 has the batteries of the D7000 (EN-EL15) with 1900mAh, the J1 has a new form tfactor with 1000 mAh. (replacement batteries are cheaper for the J1)
The display of the V1 has double the resolution (I never missed it on my J1)
The V1 has an EVF (good with sunlight)
The V1 has an mechanical shutter (I havent seen a better IQ due to it)
The V1 has a shorter flash sync time (1/250sec vs. 1/60)
The V1 is heavier
The V1 has significantly more buffer (44 images vs. 19 images in the J1, more than the D3 series)
The V1 has a sensor vibration to clean the sensor
The J1 fits in your trousers and pockets (don't underestimate the size difference)
The J1 is cheaper. The J1 with double zoom kit is cheaper than the V1 & 10-30mm

2) overall quality and utility of the lenses (my personal ranking after 4.000 shots)

a) 30-110mm (this is a little gem, love it. Never thought I will do so much at 110mm (300mm))
b) 10-30mm (Has VR at 10mm which helps to get down to 1/5sec handheld, is not that much slower at 10mm than the pancake - f 3.5 vs. f 2.8)
c) 10-100mm (Sure the right thing for video. Too big for pure photography. The 30-110mm has better IQ at 100mm)
d) 10mm pancake. Yep, small size is nice. That's it. No VR for amazing dawn shots on the go. Missing VR is clearly visible in video when the camera is not on a tripod. Small, but less versatile. Speed advantage is minimal. Optical quality: I prefer the kit zoom.

To be compact and flexible: I'd currently recommend the J1 and a double zoom kit (lower cost, smaller, excellent quality, great focal range). Take a second battery.

regards,
Andy



Nov 26, 2011 at 12:04 PM
patriot
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · One month shooting with the System 1


posten wrote:
Thans for your detailed thoughts, it seems like it exceeded your expectations. I'm also in the 'dubious' camp.

I'd be interested more in your review if you didn't look at the 1 system in a vacuum. Have you compared it to a NEX-5N or a M4/3rds cam? If the 1 system were the only thing on the market it might be interesting but with so many other better options I can't see the appeal. Those other systems beat it on all counts that matter to me, lens choice, image quality, ergonomics and cost. The 1 system doesn't have an edge in
...Show more

Been trying to do the same ... find comparisons to 4/3rds. The newest Olympus PEN's look interesting, and I saw a review thad had side by side images at various ISO's in which the PEN looked better than the 1. Other reviews on the new PEN's state the AF is vastly improved. Others however dis the sensor, say it's old technology, and that the new 4\3rds are better at high ISO. Rob G seems to like his 1, so far. From what I can gather, the 1 has as-good-as-it-gets AF (in this comp set), great IQ, but high ISO is a weak spot compared to the 4/3rds. But it's a little smaller physically, so it's more pocketable.

One thing that surprises me: all of these, unless you get the one wide fixed FL lens in the line up (10mm for Nikon), the lenses are all slow. This is odd to me because you can find faster small cheap lenses on the Fuji X10, Olympus's new enthusiast P&S, etc.



Nov 26, 2011 at 01:51 PM
patriot
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · One month shooting with the System 1


Andy,

I'm considering the J1 and the new PEN Mini. Was close on the Fuji X10, but after more reading have concluded that for the price and size, the J1 and the PEN offer more. I've gone through a number of small cameras over the years, looking for when I don't want to carry a DSLR and 24-70 f2.8 lens combo. Some Fuji, Nikon, Oly, but mostly Canons: several generations of G's, S90, etc. Problem has been, when I take one of these, I usually end up regretting not have the DSLR, and ultimately end up leaving these home, collecting dust (although my daughter has a G7 that somehow escaped Ebay doom).

I'm curious what other small cameras you have played with, especially any 4/3rds, and what you think of the 1 compared to those? Any insights appreciated!



Nov 26, 2011 at 02:01 PM
AndreasE
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · One month shooting with the System 1


patriot wrote:
Been trying to do the same ... find comparisons to 4/3rds. The newest Olympus PEN's look interesting, and I saw a review thad had side by side images at various ISO's in which the PEN looked better than the 1. Other reviews on the new PEN's state the AF is vastly improved.

One thing that surprises me: all of these, unless you get the one wide fixed FL lens in the line up (10mm for Nikon), the lenses are all slow. This is odd to me because you can find faster small cheap lenses on the Fuji X10, Olympus's new
...Show more

There is an interesting thread over there at dpreview.com:

photozone.de published their first 2 CX lens reviews and a discussion started - pretty similar to the questions you raise above.

On the topic of distortion, Markus of photozone.de pointed out that Nikon choose to fix lens distortion optically and not per software.

People pointed out that distortion is quite high at m4/3 lenses, with the exception been the Zuiko 50mm f2.0 macro. Basically all micro 4/3 reviews at dpreview and test images posted are done with the Zuiko 50mm macro.

OleThorsen summmarized the dpreview reviews:
Olympus PEN E-P3 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens
Olympus PEN E-PL3 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens
Olympus PEN E-PM1 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF3 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 - Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens

Now it's time for you to find some mft camera reviews that is not using the Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50mm 1:2.0 Macro lens. For your information the Nikon 1 V1 and J1 is taken with the 30-110 at 34mm (82-300mm FX eq. at 92mm).


Lesson learned: Comparing cameras on dpreview between the 2 systems, you compare also the impact of a macro with a kit zoom lens. (Nothing bad in itself. Only to be aware of)

Second point:
The m4/3 manufacturers in their attempt to balance lens size and weight with the need to cover a comparatively larger sensor choose for the non Zuiko 50mm f2.0 macro lens the development direction to fix lens distortion per software (which reduces resolution and increases noise in the affected areas)


Again OleThorsen:
Here is a short list of some of the mft lenses with distortion data from Photozone.
Panasonic Lumix G 14mm f/2.5 barrel 5% (0.85)
Panasonic Lumix G 20mm f/1.7 barrel 3.3% (0.14)
Panasonic Lumix G 7-14mm f/4 barrel 7mm 5.2% (1.1)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-42 mm f/3,5-5,6 barrel 5.0% (0.7)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 barrel 14/18/25mm 5.5/4.1/2.2% (1.3/?)
Panasonic Lumix G Vario HD 14-140mm f/4-5.8 ASPH barrel 14mm 6.2% (1.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko 12mm f/2 ED barrel 5.4% (0.7)
Olympus M.Zuiko 17mm f/2.8 barrel 4.5% (0.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 9-18mm f/4-5.6 ED barrel 9mm 4.8% (1.8)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 ED barrel 14mm 4,6% (1.7)
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-150mm f/4-5.6 ED barrel 14mm 5,7% (1.3)

As a comparison Nikon 1 lenses is tested without correction
Nikkor 10mm f/2.8 barrel 1,8%
Nikkor VR 10-30mm f/3.5-5.6 barrel 10/14/18/24/30 2,5/1,2/0,4/0,05/0,03%


Lesson learned: it takes considerable software correction with m4/3 cameras to allow to fit the design criteria to develop reasonable small lenses and at the same time cover a larger sensor size with a small flange distance.

If you only shoot with the Zuiko 50mm f2.0, then dpreview review images are a good base for your assessment. If you consider to use other lenses, don't forget the impact of this on corner and edge sharpness and noise.

This might one of the reasons, why Nikon choose the route towards a smaller sensor size to fix more things optically and less with software. (CA, vignetting being the other ones)

regards,
Andy



Nov 26, 2011 at 02:10 PM
AndreasE
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · One month shooting with the System 1


@taoguy and @nikt,
many thanks for your great comments.

Andy



Nov 26, 2011 at 03:26 PM
hans98ko
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · One month shooting with the System 1


I just can't make myself to believe a person using the Nikon 1 system for just a month knowing so much about the camera design, the way it was being tested, the internal operation of Nikon down to the number of staff working on the assembly lines.

It just sound too much to be true or should I say more like a troll for a system that has being released for a couple of months and yet to see ONE user using it on the street. Yes, I saw a couple of people enquiring about it at our still running Singapore Info Technologies Exhibition (SITEX) but yet to see one buying ONE (for that price users here will go for a full DSLR or a larger sensor NEX or MFT).

I see a lot more Sony NEX systems on our streets, follow by a mixed of Olympus and Lumix MFTs.

I think the low interest in the Nikon 1 system is due to them coming late into the market by 2 years and at the same time uses a new format that has absolute NO advantage, that even you're looking forward to cameras with newer sensor size.

You were right in saying that software post processing for distortion cannot makeup for optical correction for distortion, but why is it that almost all the AF-S lenses that Nikon came out with to replace those AF-D, AF or even AI-S lenses have higher distortion? And we are talking about their top lenses for their DSLR.

By the way which department of Nikon do you work for? It just sound too good for a user for a month to put so much credit on a system that even trusted sites did not emphasize so much on.



Nov 26, 2011 at 04:10 PM
AndreasE
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · One month shooting with the System 1


hans98ko wrote:
I just can't make myself to believe a person using the Nikon 1 system for just a month knowing so much about the camera design, the way it was being tested, the internal operation of Nikon down to the number of staff working on the assembly lines.

@hans98ko,
I don't want to influence your beliefs - that's up to you.

For your POV, please check the background of the information source. Please do so with my comments as well.

It is your right to dismiss my comments and statements, but please read what I wrote in the blog. The supposedly internal information on the numbers of workers on the assembly line is public knowledge (The link to these kind of information sources is in the story on my blog). BTW, my V1 died a "heat attack".

After a month of usage and deep interest in a new system, you will most likely find the major capabilities and weaknesses. Sometimes its fun to share those experiences, which I have done in the past as well.

Some stories:
First month with the D7000
First month with the D5100


all the best and kind regards,
Andy


Edited on Nov 27, 2011 at 12:18 AM · View previous versions



Nov 26, 2011 at 05:17 PM
DGC1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · One month shooting with the System 1


It must be H**L to be smart and well informed !


Nov 26, 2011 at 08:22 PM
M635_Guy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · One month shooting with the System 1


@Hans - please look a liitle deeper before you make accusations...


Nov 27, 2011 at 03:53 AM
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