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Archive 2011 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?
  
 
wstam
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p.5 #1 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


atran wrote:
Great color and sharpness, what lens you are using ?
Thank you,
An


For these two photos, first one was taken with elmarit-m 90/2.8. Second one was ZM 35/2.8.

Thanks.



Nov 09, 2011 at 03:01 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.5 #2 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


kosmoskatten wrote:
Note that the Hawk's adapter is not just a tube, it's a helicoid so you can adjust near focus with the adapter focusing ring from same magnification as GXR down to what the image shows.
This, to me, is a huge benefit for the Sony with Hawk's adapter.


Absolutely... that's why I picked up a Hawk's adapter in advance of receiving the NEX-7. That alone isn't quite enough to make up my mind on the 5N vs GXR decision though.

Earlier I sat down to write a pro/con list for both the NEX-5N and GXR and found that was no help at all in cementing in my mind a purchase decision. At least I've moved on past the NEX-7 period of acceptable mourning. By the end of today I'm ordering one or the other, unless a rich uncle I don't have decides to hand me an M9 in which case I still need to get a spare camera for when it is off for servicing.

Maybe the most important questions - image quality - is what really needs asking:

Which do you prefer for image quality? Your 5N or GXR? Does the choice vary by subject? Do you reach for a different camera for landscape work than you would for candids or street/travel or portraits? If you were shooting stage-lit performers? Significant other in window light? Kids playing sports? Mountain vistas at sunrise? Mid-day? Sunset? Harsh overhead daylight in a concrete (or sand) jungle?

Do you find working with the raw files of either to be the same, or are there issues or opportunities present in one or the other?




Nov 09, 2011 at 05:30 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #3 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Hey Michael, I will have to answer a bit vaguely on that one.

In short:
I can't really help you out that much as I can't decide myself.
None of them are perfect cameras. If one of them was, the other would not be an option.
Both of them are great cameras and I would say either one does a respectable job.

Build and handling definitely goes to Ricoh GXR. By quite some margin.

On image quality I think they are on par, more or less. The resolution advantage for Sony isn't anything I would lose sleep over. If I was really serious about landscape, none of them would meet my criteria. But they both perform really well.

Sony has better rear LCD, an advantage Ricoh makes up for with a better focus aid.
Sony has a better EVF. Ricoh might catch up with this and launch a similar one. Or not.
Sony is faster in a few departments, slightly faster frame rate and clearing image buffer more rapidly.
Sony will accept a few more alternative lenses.

For family action Sony comes with a cheap and pretty good kit lens. Ricoh has nothing similar to offer. Ricoh will apparently release a 24-85mm fast zoom (2.8 I think) with APS-C sensor. It is going to cost you though.

None of the cameras will perform well at all the different scenarios you describe. They both tick off quite a few of them. For my type of photography they will both do well. I will not ditch the Ricoh unless a better camera with at least the same level of handling surfaces. The Sony camera? They will probably churn out another NEX by the end of next year, possibly improved. If you go with Sony you will have an option to keep the Sony NEX5N as a sidekick to the newer future NEX.

To me, it is the lenses. I have two for GXR that aren't comaptible with anything else and quite a few cross platform lenses so I can keep both cameras indefinitely. The build quality of the Sony is lacking and some of the functions are fiddly, with an increased risk of losing a shot. Ricoh is a bit slower in other regards - with the risk of losing a shot for different reasons.

All things considered, Ricoh GXR is a great camera, with excellent build quality and image quality. 12MP might seem low by today's standards but it gets me by quite comfortably. I know I won't sell the GXR anytime soon, it is a rare camera that I feel I can keep with me until it falls apart. It will always be good enough to serve a purpose. The NEX5N is not a lesser performer, it is just that it lacks in a few departments where I happen to care.

If I was just waiting for the next big announcement and needed a stop gap camera the NEX5N would probably fit the bill. That is exactly what it is to me. The GXR will stay, even when the next big thing has arrived.

I can recommend both. If you do mostly low ISO shooting they will both serve you really well. If you plan on using an external finder you should go for the Sony. If you need a serious action camera I am not sure either one would fit the bill.

To sum it up; Ricoh feels like a photographer's camera, the Sony feels like a churned out piece of plastic - that does remarkably well but does not inspire confidence in build. I honestly think that the Sony would be a safer bet. But, I am more often than not the odd one out, so Ricoh fits me just fine.




Edited on Nov 09, 2011 at 06:05 PM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2011 at 05:40 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.5 #4 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


I was very excited about the dazzling aspects of the NEX-7, which are obvious, but soon came down to earth and realized what I really wanted to know was how it performed with Leica-M lenses, of which I have six. On the other hand, I had the GXR and the A12/28 and A12/50 camera units and was not impressed with the idea of the M-Module — until I visited the Ricoh Camera importer in Bangkok and shot two pictures with the CV Heliar-25 and the DR Summicron-50, and saw how good the resolution and colors were; how the camera was transparent to the lens, so that the properties of the DR Summicron were visible in the shots, the way they were on film. Today, I don't think any less of the NEX-7 but I would wait until I could see the results from it with M-Lenses by photographers whose judgment I trust, or if I could try it myself, or read Sean Reid's review, which is likely to compare to the GXR. Why the rush? A Steve Huff "slam-bam-thank-you-mam?"

Chiang Mai | GXR-M | Elmarit-21 ASPH | ISO 200 | f/8 | 1/160 sec | RPP-Silver Efex-Aperture






—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Tristes Tropiques? No, They Have a Strip Mall in Chiang Mai Too (WIP)t

Edited on Dec 10, 2011 at 03:32 AM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2011 at 05:47 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #5 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


MItch; powerful B&W image.


Nov 09, 2011 at 06:08 PM
jv11
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p.5 #6 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Hey Michael,

I have both the 5n and Ricoh so I can give you my opinions on raw output. First off they are both very good cameras and you can't go wrong with either. The 5n output looks like many other aps-c cameras including the k5, d7000, d5100. If you seen files from those you are in the ballpark of what you can expect from the 5n. Not that this is a bad thing as the files are really good. Just trying to give you an idea of what you can expect image quality wise from the 5n. Ricoh's files have a unique signature with their color, sharpness and micro contrast. The a12 mount files probably lean closer to the m8 due to the missing aa filter, but are still quite different. The ricoh also works better with rangefinder lenses as the corners are crisper and have no magenta cast with the lenses I have. The 5n while better then the nex 5 still has a slight magenta cast in the corners with wide lenses. Noise wise the Sony is a little better and has a base iso of 100. If you like to lift shadows in post processing the 5n is incredible in that you can lift them with just a slight penalty. As for high iso the Ricoh files have a little more noise but they also have a little more detail. The build and handling is good enough on the 5n, but the Ricoh is one step above that. It really feels solid in the hand and the button customization is endless. I do prefer the flip lcd of the 5n as it makes tripod work a breeze. Hopefully Ricoh will address this with a new body. I can't comment on the EVF as I only have the Ricoh one and I like it. Its small, has a good refresh rate and works well in most lighting conditions. However, most people say the Sony is better. I prefer focus assist mode 2 on the Ricoh compared to Sony's peaking. Sony's looks great on the screen, but it is not very accurate in my opinion. Sorry my post is all over the place, but I was just typing random thoughts and didn't organize them. Below is my quick pro's list for each camera.

Buy the Ricoh if:
+Strictly use rangefinder lenses as the corners are crisper on the ricoh with no magenta cast.
+Sharpness and micro contrast are high right out of the camera. Sony's files are a little flat and need more post work, although some people may prefer to start with a flat file.
+ I prefer the Ricoh colors
+Quieter Shutter
+Good build and handling


Buy the Sony if:
+Like the idea of the Hawks Adapter as this gives you the ability to focus close and infinity with one adapter
+Flip LCD
+Want system lenses. Sony has more with several zooms.
+Like using the camera for movies.
+Will use the camera with other mounts. You can find a nex adapter for practically any mount.
+ Higher FPS





michaelwatkins wrote:
Absolutely... that's why I picked up a Hawk's adapter in advance of receiving the NEX-7. That alone isn't quite enough to make up my mind on the 5N vs GXR decision though.

Earlier I sat down to write a pro/con list for both the NEX-5N and GXR and found that was no help at all in cementing in my mind a purchase decision. At least I've moved on past the NEX-7 period of acceptable mourning. By the end of today I'm ordering one or the other, unless a rich uncle I don't have decides to hand me an M9 in which
...Show more



Nov 09, 2011 at 07:10 PM
bluetsunami
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p.5 #7 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


kosmoskatten wrote:
BlueTsunami: what lenses were those Jpegs shot with? Also, I think the Jpeg settings on the GXR might be a culprit on the soft samples.


They were taken with the A12/28mm module, here's the link...

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/ricoh_gxr_a12_review/sample_images/

Picking out the ones with the highest shutter speeds to make sure camera movement was not a factor one can see that the JPEG files have nearly the same look of a camera with an AA filter in place. Fine detail just isn't there like in the DNG files.

Now in the DNG/RAW section, in the second to last photo, I had opened it up in Photoshop and could see fine texture in the buildings and the camera even picked up individual links in the far crane which amazed me. Using my sharpening action (taken from denoir) all these small things are even partially translated to websize, which I love.



Nov 09, 2011 at 07:14 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #8 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


JV11; I agree on your post.
Then we are at least two people in this thread with both cameras.

bluetsunami: will check it out.



Nov 09, 2011 at 07:38 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.5 #9 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


You may not be the only two with both cameras for long. Thanks @kosmoskatten for spending the time sharing your GXR love. It was very helpful... so helpful I set about trying to buy one in as responsible manner as possible (thinking about warranty and such) and found I could not do it, at least not until January it seems.

The GXR and M mount module isn't available from any authorized US seller; I've no problem with ordering anything from Hong Kong - I do it all the time - but I am a little less keen on dealing with overseas warranty service down the road so I think I'll hold off checking the GXR until January... or perhaps a little longer to see if Ricoh has something up their sleeves that I'm interested in.

I wish I could overlook warranty concerns but my experience with the X100 failing says I shouldn't.

I'm disappointed as I have a feeling that Ricoh is where my heart lies, but perhaps we'll be united in the future. If they continue to produce the GXR, GXR-II, or some other M-compatible system going forward (or a FF version) we can get hitched together later.

I had really hoped to avoid doing the compact camera musical chairs dance but have decided that I'm going to have to experience at least one or two or three of them for myself, and I'm going to do it in the order of availability.

Here's what I've done - I'm buying a 5N and the EVF, as Sony Canada just made both available on their web site again after a number of days of not being available. Bundled together and with a promo coupon code I get $100 off, which almost pays for the taxes. Their site claims both are available and will ship this week on 11/11/11 ... we shall see. My Hawk's adapter is itching for a workout.

If they don't ship this week and instead I get a Dear Mike note indicating that the shipment date is unknown due to the flooding in Thailand, I'm buying a 5N which is coming to a store 5 blocks from me in a day or two and already has my name on it, or I must just give up with Sony and purchase a GXR, damn the details.

I also have left my NEX-7 order in place, at least for another week or so to see if they ship anything in North America. So far Sony hasn't contacted me to tell me that they aren't going to ship next week as my order states they will... but I've no confidence in their customer facing order system. If by some miracle they do ship one to me next week, I'll test it first and dispose of it if the worst fears about edge performance and M lenses are realized. I've no doubt I can sell it on-line for what I paid for it plus a small premium for my hassle factor.

When / if the 5N arrives the very first thing I'm doing is checking out performance out to the edges. I know most reports state the 5N is much improved in this regard over the 5, but once in a while some joker has to mess up that confidence builder by stating they were getting sharp performance with the NEX-5 and not with the 5N. Oh brother. Maybe the only way to know is to check it out using my lenses.

If things don't work out with the 5N I may keep it and the kit lens, sell the EVF, and gift it to the family for Christmas. If not, it is going on Craigslist or eBay very quickly while it is still "mint". They should be in short supply soon so hopefully I can get near what I paid for it, and some decent test images (and more hopefully) left on my computer and experience with the camera too.

Ultimately I'm sure the 5N is a stop-gap camera for me. I'd hoped to avoid that with the NEX-7 but despite the poor testing approach used by a number of folks, it doesn't look like the 7's performance is going to be there out to the edges like many of us hoped it would. Maybe a 7N will correct that. In the meantime, I do need a compact, and I do want to use one with my M lenses rather than have them sit on a shelf. Progress, even if not optimal, is good.



Nov 09, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Sosua
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p.5 #10 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Hi Michael,

I don't have the GXR M module, but was looking at it very closely - i've looked at a lot of really nice files from it however from DNG, developed in Lightroom - it certainly makes a beautiful 12mp file. In the end though there isn't much in the way of supply or support for Ricoh in New Zealand and I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on quite an expensive camera and module, given its effectively got a 4 year old APS-C sensor in it.

After owning a D7000 and becoming accustomed to the awesome flexibility of the RAW files, i'm a big fan of Sony's sensors.

With the recent uncertainty around the NEX-7 (supply and potential RF lens edge issues), I picked up a 5N to tide me over till the 'next big thing'. I'm currently using it just with a Voigtlander 15mm and a Leitz 90mm Elmar-C.

Its a great combo with the Voigtlander - still some color shift in overcast skies, but in most scenes its not noticeable and can be easily fixed if desired. The lens may possibly perform a little better on the Ricoh, but honestly its fantastic on the 5N - very sharp wide open over all but the extremes of the frame and as good or better than any UWA i've owned at F5.6 and F8.

I do not have the EVF however and agree, handling on the NEX-5N isn't ideal, although waist shooting is good fun and advantageous. I think the EVF would make a real difference but i'm a slow shooter and use a tripod a reasonable amount anyway so have not decided to pick one up yet. May see what the ultimate verdict on the NEX-7 first.

Anyway - the great thing is its about the lenses and if you move to another platform you can keep those of course.

2012 I suspect will be a very interesting year in the way of mirroless platforms to take advantage of with likely more to come from Ricoh, Leica, Sony and Fuji at least.

Good times!






Nov 10, 2011 at 05:15 AM
 

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michaelwatkins
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p.5 #11 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Sosua wrote:
2012 I suspect will be a very interesting year in the way of mirrorless platforms to take advantage of with likely more to come from Ricoh, Leica, Sony and Fuji at least.


Those pending announcements in 2012 were another factor that caused me to go with the readily available 5N.

I read somewhere a UK Ricoh marketing guy had quipped in an interview that they'll have in 2012 a product that "fills a gap". Maybe it's a gap I care about. I hope so. And Fujifilm is supposed to announce something... if that mystery ILC product supports rangefinder lenses I own, certainly I'm not opposed to going back to Fujifilm. I really liked the output my X100 delivered.



Nov 10, 2011 at 05:56 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.5 #12 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Sony won't be the only company with supply problems and delays in introducing new products in 2012.

Effects of Thailand flooding on Ricoh brand digital camera production

We would like to send our heartfelt condolences to those affected by the flooding in Thailand.

Since Ricoh does not produce digital cameras in Thailand, the recent flooding has not directly damaged our manufacturing bases. However, production of some parts has been halted at manufacturers we outsource production to and at suppliers. The effects of that production halt are thus starting to be seen in supply of parts.

A lack of parts has already occurred for some products (GXR MOUNT A12), and effects could be expected to expand to other products, depending on future circumstances.

We apologize for the inconvenience this
...Show more

Sensor?




Nov 10, 2011 at 09:33 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #13 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Michael; probably sensor shipments are affected then, since they use Sony sensors. That's bad news, on top of everything else.

I think you made a good choice. I actually picked up a new EVF today, bought from a guy who got it for his NEX5, only it doesn't fit the "old" NEX5. Got a good price too.

The viewfinder is very good and does add to the usability of the camera as a whole. Since I can do macro with the Hawk's adapter the EVF comes in handy. Though I still don't find it as pleasant as an RF window or the optical finder of the A900 I have to say that being able to live focus with the magnification works really well and simply cannot be done with an optical finder.

However, some of the quirks with the Sony menu wheel started to get on my nerves...
I stick by my previous statement that having ONE wheel to do several tricks is not a good idea. When going for exp comp I would accidentally hit the magnification and vice versa, or the menu wheel would lead me to ISO settings.

This is where the NEX7 would rock, I guess. I am quite sure the NEX7 won't work well with the wides I use so I will have to join you on musical chairs and stick with the 5N until the next working solution arrives. I skipped the NEX3 and NEX5.

GXR works fine, and will be replaced by an GXR II, if one arrives. Their promise to fill a gap in the consumer market is intriguing as I find that they usually make an effort to release well thought out products.

NEX5N will be replaced by the NEX__? I will skip the NEX7 I guess. I can't really see myself paying that much for something that is only "nearly there".

I find that both the GXR and the NEX5N gives me enough shooting pleasure that I can wait quite a while for a better solution. When it comes to customer support and future upgrades I know you can't trust Sony at all. Ricoh implemented updates for older cameras for quite a while, breathing new life into them (GRDII and III) with enhanced custom functions.

Sony can't even make an external viewfinder that is backwards compatible with the 3 and 5. Those users are left out in the cold. Same with batteries for Sony, they have some similar batteries but with proprietary contacts so you can't use them on other Sony products, despite similar specifications. All NEX have the same batteries though, AFAIK, the confusion lies in that they have similar specification batteries with almost the same name, only one letter difference, which according to a sales rep causes unwanted confusion from both vendors and customers. I got handed the wrong battery and since I had opened the blister pack they would not take it back, despite that they had given it to me. The sales clerk that helped me wasn't there that day to corroborate my version. Well, will have to give it away I guess. It looks the same, has same specs but has a slight difference in battery contacts...

With Sony I kind of expect to be left out in the cold so I am very reluctant to buying a NEX7 and I feel better off with the NEX5N which I can afford to use and dump when I am done with it.

Anyway, the NEX5N feels like a mini dSLR now with the external viewfinder. I hope Ricoh will catch up with the competition and offer something new. Will upload a few size comparisons soon.

With the EVF and ZM18 mounted:


With the tiny M-Rokkor 40/2 mounted:


The ZM50/2 compared to the M40/2, both size and weight differs a lot. With the 40/2 it slips nicely into smaller bags. With a smaller adapter than the Hawks' even more so:


All three compared, the ZM25 is virtually same size and weight as the ZM50 so I didn't bother to include it in the group photo:


PS:
I could have gotten a GXR M for you from my local dealer. He has a few hidden away.



Nov 10, 2011 at 02:20 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.5 #14 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


kosmoskatten wrote:
I think you made a good choice. I actually picked up a new EVF today, bought from a guy who got it for his NEX5, only it doesn't fit the "old" NEX5. Got a good price too.


Well, taking advantage of Sony's lack of backward compatibility having zinged the unwary in one breath while (correctly) criticizing them for the practice in the next. Well done! Seriously though, point taken.

However, some of the quirks with the Sony menu wheel started to get on my nerves...
I stick by my previous statement that having ONE wheel to do several tricks is not a good idea. When going for exp comp I would accidentally hit the magnification and vice versa, or the menu wheel would lead me to ISO settings.


I worry about this already. The most significant criticism I had of the X100 was that it *almost* went far enough but not quite. With only one customization Fn button you couldn't configure the camera to give you direct access to meaningful settings affecting exposure which for me included quick access to the neutral density filter (needed when shooting wide open since the camera couldn't operate at full shutter speed until stopped down to f/5.6) and ISO. Auto ISO was buried in menus instead of incorporated as a menu off the ISO list. But at least it had an actual exposure compensation knob. Many times moving in and out of shadow or in and out of doors I'd be fighting settings and I hate dealing with lots of menus.

I am prepared not to like the Sony for that reason and am definitely pre-disposed to preferring the Ricoh.

This is where the NEX7 would rock, I guess.

EVF and having all shutter, aperture and ISO all right at hand, plus whatever else I wanted with all those definable buttons - that's absolutely what drew me to it. I could care less about the 24 mega pixel this or that.

GXR works fine, and will be replaced by an GXR II, if one arrives. Their promise to fill a gap in the consumer market is intriguing as I find that they usually make an effort to release well thought out products.

I hope they are releasing something that I'd be interested in that can also replace the 5N. I'm ok with being frustrated with the Sony for awhile, figuring I'd find it easier to dump locally if not on eBay than the GXR if I wanted to move to the gap-filler.

Ricoh implemented updates for older cameras for quite a while, breathing new life into them (GRDII and III) with enhanced custom functions. [...]

PS:
I could have gotten a GXR M for you from my local dealer. He has a few hidden away.


You had to say that. I already have early buyers remorse and my credit card hasn't even been charged yet.

Had there been a local dealer not trying to hose me I'm sure I'd already have a GXR unpacked and in action.



Edited on Nov 10, 2011 at 06:08 PM · View previous versions



Nov 10, 2011 at 03:41 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #15 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Yes, just wanted to rub it in a little.

Nah, seriously, you will enjoy the files out of the NEX5N, I am quite sure of it. I am not a big fan of Sony as a company, but I am not dismissing the product. They have been stirring it up which in my book is a good thing. If choosing between an equal product from Sony and (insert brand name here) I will choose (insert brand name here).

Being torn between liking it or not is something you'll have to live with. Quick math tells me I can enjoy both cameras, spend some on nice lenses and be ready whatever might pop up since the actual camera investment is slight.

The Sony has two stand out features for me: the best EVF finder out there and a really good APS-C sensor. Add the Hawk's adapter and I can see why most people would choose it over the GXR, price difference not included in the comparison. Having had the GXR since it came out I have a longer perspective on it and I am very reluctant to giving it up. Still rooting for Ricoh and looking forward to the next incarnation of it.

If the NEX5N had been built like the NEX7 it might have been a different story, but as it stands now it will be another year, waiting and hoping that they'll get it right. Whoever they are. I will give the NEX/ a squeeze when it arrives and keep the hope up for a NEX7N.
Sony has showed that they can (silently) improve their sensors. With the current rate of model release from Sony the chances are pretty good. Unless they feel that they have reached an eclipse with the NEX7 and fail to address the shortcomings of it. Their goal must have been to release a knock out with the NEX7 and judging from what they are seemingly capable of I would not be pleased if I was on the R&D team and I hope they are still eager beavers flapping their tails in their little pond at the Sony NEX R&D.



Nov 10, 2011 at 04:04 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.5 #16 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


I forgot to ask the most important question: are you going to dress up your EVF, Hassy-like?

Called Sony and they came through... my order is already with the courier. No turning back now. In a way I'm glad that I get to spend some time experiencing the NEX but sad that because it won't be a keeper I can't Hassify the finder!

Now that I have a camera on the way I'm dead certain they'll ship me the NEX-7 next week too. The delay is all part of their master plan to load the channel with surplus 5Ns! Just wait.



Nov 10, 2011 at 04:39 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.5 #17 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Of course I am going to pimp it. How could I not?

Well, of course they will ship the NEX7 now; it is part of Sony's EVIL scheme, unloading their excess inventory on the vulnerable GAS ridden customers.



Nov 10, 2011 at 05:37 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.5 #18 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Under my signature is a series that I shot with the GXR M-Mount and the Elmarit-ASPH, developed in RPP.

—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Tristes Tropiques? No, They Have a Strip Mall in Chiang Mai Too



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:31 PM
wstam
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p.5 #19 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


One taken recently. PP to B&W







Post here to keep this thread alive



Nov 24, 2011 at 05:10 PM
EOS20
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p.5 #20 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Ricoh to make 16MP APS-C GXR zoom module:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/28/ricoh16MP




Nov 29, 2011 at 04:05 AM
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