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Archive 2011 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?
  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #1 · p.31 #1 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


uscmatt99 wrote:
Here's a RAW from the ZM25/GXR combo converted in Aperture and downsized by Smugmug, followed by a 100% crop. It was handheld at 1/217 second, ISO 200. This fortunately isn't nearly as obvious as the house example. It can be a little more intense than this, but I think the crop is pretty representative. I've found it's more easily seen and distracting with pure white skies, but not really an issue to me with a blue or textured sky.

http://matthewcummings.smugmug.com/Other/Ricoh-GXR-ZM-25mm-Samples/i-V4pcNsq/0/XL/R1011581-XL.jpg

http://matthewcummings.smugmug.com/Other/Ricoh-GXR-ZM-25mm-Samples/i-vV8CdhK/0/XL/R1011581-Version-2-XL.jpg


Thanks for posting this example. Very helpful.



Feb 16, 2012 at 03:45 PM
uscmatt99
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p.31 #2 · p.31 #2 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Thanks for the compliment Edward. These pics were at one of those resorts that send you home fatter and redder than when you arrived, and I'm guessing it's not representative of a day in the life of most native Jamaicans.... The last photo is just a posed shot of my wife and I. She loves that type of candid photography, and we spent a day going all over the resort with the GXR and a table-top tripod doing pseudo-candids like that. Here's one more I liked, then I'm done polluting the thread with images








Feb 16, 2012 at 03:46 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #3 · p.31 #3 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


I think it's great seeing the images...keep em coming.

My wife and I were in Negril, Jamaica this time last year. Great trip...though we both feel lucky to have survived the taxi ride over and back from the airport.



Feb 16, 2012 at 03:57 PM
uscmatt99
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p.31 #4 · p.31 #4 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I think it's great seeing the images...keep em coming.

My wife and I were in Negril, Jamaica this time last year. Great trip...though we both feel lucky to have survived the taxi ride over and back from the airport.


Haha, tell me about it. We were in Lucea, halfway to Negril from Montego Bay. Our cab driver got a ticket on the way to the airport, which was a 30-minute affair taken very seriously by the law enforcement there. But paradoxically, all of the signs and lines on the road seem to be vague suggestions at best, and I can't believe some of the passes we made into oncoming traffic both ways. Good thing my life insurance policy is up to date.



Feb 16, 2012 at 04:41 PM
Toothwalker
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p.31 #5 · p.31 #5 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I would really be curious to see an example of moire which shows up in this situation - fine, irregularly shaped twigs and branches on trees.


The designation moiré applies to regular patterns, so you won't see moiré with irregular tree branches.You will see aliasing however. Aliasing occurs whenever the projected image has frequency contents in excess of the maximum spatial frequency that the sensor can capture. With a good lens, large to medium apertures, proper focusing etc. most images captured with an AA-less sensor abound in artefacts. They are everywhere. Where the true scene has regular high-frequency patterns, aliasing results in low-frequency regular patterns. This is known as moiré, which is readily noticed and often disturbing. In other places the aliasing may go unnoticed, in which case it is evidently less disturbing. Unless you know what to look for.



Feb 16, 2012 at 04:47 PM
douglasf13
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p.31 #6 · p.31 #6 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Mitch Alland wrote:
I don't find it being a dubious claim at all, based on my experience with the GXR-M, which I finds is very much transparent to lenses, letting the properties of lenses that I know from use with film simply come through — more so, I find, than the M8 and M9.

—MItch/Bangkok



This is exactly the dubious claim in question, which we've examining for several pages in this thread. The false detail caused by removing the AA may be more pleasing to you, as it is for many others, but claims of "letting the lens properties come through" are more mystical, rather than factual, and Sean makes the same incorrect conclusion. I COMPLETELY understand why you prefer no AA filter, it's just that you're reasoning is a bit misleading.





Feb 16, 2012 at 04:51 PM
AhamB
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p.31 #7 · p.31 #7 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


@Douglas: That's exactly what I meant.


edwardkaraa wrote:
AhamB, thanks for the explanation. I was not aware of this kind of aliasing.


Now that I think about it: artifacts similar to those in uscmat99's shots can also occur with AA-filtered cameras. Some time ago, someone opened a thread about it with a shot showing a blue/orange kind of aliasing in water ripples, and I have a similar shot that shows this artifact. What's interesting is that the artifact was completely absent when I used Canon DPP to look at the image at 100%, while Lightroom did show the artifact.



Feb 16, 2012 at 05:21 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #8 · p.31 #8 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Toothwalker wrote:
The designation moiré applies to regular patterns, so you won't see moiré with irregular tree branches.You will see aliasing however. Aliasing occurs whenever the projected image has frequency contents in excess of the maximum spatial frequency that the sensor can capture. With a good lens, large to medium apertures, proper focusing etc. most images captured with an AA-less sensor abound in artefacts. They are everywhere. Where the true scene has regular high-frequency patterns, aliasing results in low-frequency regular patterns. This is known as moiré, which is readily noticed and often disturbing. In other places the aliasing may go unnoticed, in
...Show more

Thanks for making this distinction. So the red and green christmas tree like color artifacts in the tree branch example - evident upon close inspection - along with the jagged zebra edges of the limbs would both fall under another type of digital artifact due to not using an AA filter? I always thought the color artifact even in this case was referred to as color moire.



Feb 16, 2012 at 05:37 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.31 #9 · p.31 #9 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


AhamB wrote:
@Douglas: That's exactly what I meant.


Now that I think about it: artifacts similar to those in uscmat99's shots can also occur with AA-filtered cameras. Some time ago, someone opened a thread about it with a shot showing a blue/orange kind of aliasing in water ripples, and I have a similar shot that shows this artifact. What's interesting is that the artifact was completely absent when I used Canon DPP to look at the image at 100%, while Lightroom did show the artifact.


I'm not sure if this is what is referred to as false color, as DPP automatically removes that.



Feb 16, 2012 at 05:54 PM
AhamB
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p.31 #10 · p.31 #10 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Yeah, apparently it does. I'm wondering why LR doesn't do it though.


Feb 16, 2012 at 06:09 PM
 

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kosmoskatten
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p.31 #11 · p.31 #11 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


AhamB: thanks again for the mini-tutorial on aliasing/false color. Very helpful. I wonder how different RAW converters handle this or if they can do that effectively. I am asking as I have yet to see disturbing aliasing in my shots. I have seen some, but not to the extent of being severe. Yet.

Uscmatt99: nice crispy pop in those images.



Feb 16, 2012 at 09:29 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.31 #12 · p.31 #12 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Matt, thans for that reality check (just covering all the possible bases!).

Your lovely images from Jamaica show what Mitch has been talking about: moiré is not a problem with the images he is typically shooting (people curves and somewhat OOF backgrounds, or content that is sufficiently arresting that one does not look further ; the images of your house, on the other hand, have the straight and fine lines that are definitely interacting with the sensor. Now, my work lies somewhere in between (curves and straight lines where the focus of interest is both), and I know most of the situations that provoke moiré. I should note that, typically, I am shooting at ƒ11, with UWAs, too, so again not the same.

And your last image shows a different kind of artifact—can the CA sliders correct any of this, I wonder?

And (this to Tariq): I wonder if the larger pixel in the Leaf back mean that the frequencies that are required to trigger artifacts would turn up somewhere else in an image (not such fine details)? I know that some kinds of fabrics are hell to shoot on MF digital—and the GXR seems not to have any problems with fabrics for me (so far). It's all interesting, for sure



Feb 16, 2012 at 10:01 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.31 #13 · p.31 #13 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Kit, like Henrik I also wonder wether and, if so, what role the raw processor used plays a role in this. Have you had a chance to try RPP yet?

—MItch/Bangkok
Paris au rythme de Basquiat



Feb 16, 2012 at 10:08 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #14 · p.31 #14 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Mitch Alland wrote:
Kit, like Henrik I also wonder wether and, if so, what role the raw processor used plays a role in this. Have you had a chance to try RPP yet?

—MItch/Bangkok
Paris au rythme de Basquiat


The raw developer does play a role and I believe Joakim/ TheSuede claims that ACR/ lightroom is not very good in dealing with moire in it's de-mosaic algorithm compared to some other raw converters such as C1 Pro.



Feb 16, 2012 at 10:40 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #15 · p.31 #15 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Kit Laughlin wrote:
And (this to Tariq): I wonder if the larger pixel in the Leaf back mean that the frequencies that are required to trigger artifacts would turn up somewhere else in an image (not such fine details)? I know that some kinds of fabrics are hell to shoot on MF digital—and the GXR seems not to have any problems with fabrics for me (so far). It's all interesting, for sure


There are so many variables - lens, angle, distance, F-stop, raw converter, etc. - that I have no idea. It is indeed interesting.



Feb 16, 2012 at 10:44 PM
theSuede
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p.31 #16 · p.31 #16 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Newer version of most raw converters should handle moire and aliasing better. This is one of the largest benefits of having cameras with "more pixels" than you need, since stretching all and every pixel to its' limit is always a bad idea. If you need 10MP in your image, go for a 20MP capture. At least.

The reason newer versions work better is that they have:
1) better directional algorithms, they interpolate "along" edges where they find them and avoid interpolating "across" edges.
2) The more pixels you have, the lesser the need for color resolution becomes. Then you can relax the interpolation scheme, and look at larger areas to get the G&R beneath the Blue pixels and G&B beneath the Red pixels.

Older version that had to work with razor-sharp 6MP images just HAD to extract all the information inherent in the raw. This is no longer necessary, since you very often have more than you need. And if you're going to downscale anyway - why bother?



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:05 PM
uscmatt99
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p.31 #17 · p.31 #17 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


Joakim,

I forgot to thank you for the offer to come up with a sharpening paradigm for my diffraction limited files. I only have Aperture 3 as my RAW converter. I've not been thrilled with the sharpening results I got from it, and have just been using Nik's "adaptive" sharpening tool which has good results to my eye, but better for the D700 NEF files than the GXR's dng files. I'd be happy to send you files if I could only figure out how to send big TIFFs efficiently, either by Smugmug links or another method.



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:12 PM
theSuede
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p.31 #18 · p.31 #18 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


I wouldn't need a BIG tiff, the size you posted here is great. Grab the F11 shot crop (1024x683), but in Tiff 16-bit Adobe RGB if you can - that shouldn't get bigger than about 2MB.

Aperture doesn't really stand out as a leading edge software in sharpening...
PM with mail address sent



Feb 16, 2012 at 11:21 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.31 #19 · p.31 #19 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


I find it interesting that in Matt's house pics, the one at f/11 looks pretty much like what one would get at f/5.6 with AA. Since I started using AA cameras, my smallest aperture became f/8, while in the past I had no problem shooting at f/16 regularly. So I think this is something additional to consider that one can shoot at smaller apertures without AA, get rid of moire, get more DOF, and still be within the sharpness performance of an AA cam.


Feb 17, 2012 at 02:57 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.31 #20 · p.31 #20 · Still no love for the Ricoh GXR?


edwardkaraa wrote:
I find it interesting that in Matt's house pics, the one at f/11 looks pretty much like what one would get at f/5.6 with AA. Since I started using AA cameras, my smallest aperture became f/8, while in the past I had no problem shooting at f/16 regularly. So I think this is something additional to consider that one can shoot at smaller apertures without AA, get rid of moire, get more DOF, and still be within the sharpness performance of an AA cam.


Using softening diffraction, again suggested in another thread by Joakim, appears to be a way around moire as the diffraction acts like an AA filter. The problem would be in situations where you might want to use brighter F-stops for shallow dof or due to lighting conditions. I could see a portrait being one prime example of where I would not want to use F11 or smaller but something at 5.6 or brighter.



Feb 17, 2012 at 03:13 AM
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