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Archive 2011 · Outsourcing post processing

  
 
alexhibbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Outsourcing post processing


Hi all,

In order to reduce time in CS5 and more time shooting (natural world, wildlife, expedition and lifestyle stock) I've decided to go with outsourced post processing i.e. initial cull, colour and exposure correction and potentially retouching for portraits.

I've shortlisted these:
http://www.colorati.com/ (most expensive - good reviews)
http://shootdotedit.com/ (in the middle)
http://www.fotofafa.com/ (cheapest)

Does anyone have any experience with all or any of them? They work out at around 20-30 pence per image which is very good considering the time saved in CS5 and ACR. They all have the ability to choose processing 'style' to make sure the images match your expectations.

For lifestyle and portrait skin retouching they all provide blemish removal etc. at an hourly rate ($50-70/hr) which seems a bit open-ended and could add up fast. Instead, http://www.pilotimaging.com/pages/services-retouch/ have retouching for $5 max. per image, a more controllable rate.

What are people's thoughts? Obviously some will say, 'you'll lose all your control' etc. but the truth is that most images for stock don't require enormous creative input in CS5 and just need a sensible, subtle colour correct.

Thanks in advance,
Alex.



Apr 28, 2011 at 12:30 PM
NYCPhotog
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Outsourcing post processing


A lot of these 'companies' farm it out to India.

if they need a subtle color correct, why not do it yourself and save the money? I don't think I could ever farm any post out unless it was a pretty intense photo comp.



Apr 28, 2011 at 01:46 PM
alexhibbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Outsourcing post processing


It's also their culling services - i.e. picking between similars and cutting the rubbish which just takes so much time. Colour correction , especially subtle correction, isn't hard, but it does take time and when dealing with 100s of images, you suddenly lose an entire day. I'd rather be shooting outside!

Even if these companies subcontract to India, surely this doesn't necessarily affect output quality?




Apr 28, 2011 at 01:48 PM
NYCPhotog
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Outsourcing post processing


I'm sure you can create a workflow and some actions to cut your time considerably.

Doesn't affect their output but there's a moral issue with workers being paid pennies. Why not look for somebody local to do it? I'm sure you can find some young up and comer that would help you out. He/she would get experience, sort of like an apprentice or an intern.



Apr 28, 2011 at 01:55 PM
RHPS
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Outsourcing post processing


Difficult to reconcile the rate of "20-30 pence per image" with the rate for further work. If they are charging $50-70 per hour, that means about 20 seconds spent on one image for basic PP. Makes you think that some kind of pre-set is being used...... They need to pay a living wage too, unless they are using chimps or machines.


Apr 28, 2011 at 01:59 PM
alexhibbert
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Outsourcing post processing


I take your point on the speed of processing, but the 20-30p per image is for basic editing. The retouching is separate and quoted per hour.


Apr 28, 2011 at 02:00 PM
RDKirk
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Outsourcing post processing


alexhibbert wrote:
It's also their culling services - i.e. picking between similars and cutting the rubbish which just takes so much time. Colour correction , especially subtle correction, isn't hard, but it does take time and when dealing with 100s of images, you suddenly lose an entire day. I'd rather be shooting outside!

Even if these companies subcontract to India, surely this doesn't necessarily affect output quality?



Wow. Culling would be the very last thing I'd outsource. How could they possibly know which represented your true intent? If I found myself with a problem culling, I'd recognize that the real answer is to shoot less with more deliberation. I.e., cull in the viewfinder rather than in the computer.



Apr 28, 2011 at 02:36 PM
RDKirk
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Outsourcing post processing


alexhibbert wrote:
It's also their culling services - i.e. picking between similars and cutting the rubbish which just takes so much time. Colour correction , especially subtle correction, isn't hard, but it does take time and when dealing with 100s of images, you suddenly lose an entire day. I'd rather be shooting outside!

Even if these companies subcontract to India, surely this doesn't necessarily affect output quality?



Wow. Culling would be the very last thing I'd outsource. How could they possibly know which represented your true intent? If I found myself with a problem culling--and had any significant "rubbish" obvious enough to trust someone on the other side of the planet to recognize, I'd decide that the real answer is to shoot less with more deliberation. I.e., cull in the viewfinder rather than in the computer.



Apr 28, 2011 at 02:36 PM
butchM
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Outsourcing post processing


In this day and age with apps like Lightroom, Aperture 3, Photo Mechanic ... and even a Bridge/ACR/PS workflow ... the ability to batch process and cull to the final keepers is so easy it is scary .... and I must agree ... it would be extremely difficult for me to trust a total stranger as to what my intended vision was the moment I pressed the shutter release ...

I can routinely take 1,500-2,000 images from an all-day wedding shoot and have them culled down to about 400-500 images, renamed, processed for proofing with keywords and other unique IPTC meta data in four hours or less ... another 2-3 hours to process 60-100 images for an album ... so culling and basic WB, color balance, cropping/straightening and tonal adjustments for even a couple hundred images is child's play ...

If you are stuck in a one-image-at-a-time workflow in PS ... and each image you process needs that much TLC in PS that it ties up a full day ... you may not be placing enough attention in the capture phase ... you are missing the boat ... because it can be a lot easier and a lot less stressful ...



Apr 28, 2011 at 03:02 PM
v.bampton
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Outsourcing post processing


I've offered similar services in the UK for 6 years now, so perhaps I can offer the other side of the coin...

Yes some companies do outsource to India, and I've tried some of those Indian companies - and decided against such a course. Nothing against India, but you don't get the same person doing your work each time, so there's no consistency, and some of them are better than others. That's not a compromise I've been willing to make.

Some other companies have also expanded too quickly, with the same problems. As you know, to become really skilled at processing takes time - I was concerned that the quality dropped and there were blown highlights all over the place. Rookie mistakes.

I'm busy training a guy to take some of my work, but it'll be at least a year before I let him loose on his own. These things take time to really learn well, and if you're paying for it, you want it done really well. For that reason I'd also hesitate to take on a local kid to do that work for you.

As far as the pricing goes, don't panic about that. With experience comes speed, and if you're doing thousands of photos every week, you become very quick at making decisions about what needs tweaking. They'll also be using top end hardware, so they won't be wasting time waiting for each photo to load.

If you choose to outsource the basic editing, you're not losing control - the company should learn your specific processing style and preferences, and then you're just saving yourself time getting them to a consistent standard, so that you then have time to enjoy putting your artistic touch to then if you want to do so. From experience, I've found that my regulars actually become more artistic because they get to focus on that instead of basic consistency.

So the summary:

Find out who's going to be doing the work, and get to know each other. They need to learn your preferences as everyone is different, and you need to know that the work is going to be of a consistently high quality.

Try it and see what works for you. You might find that you want to keep the culling, outsource the basic raw processing to get a consistent standard, and then do the artistic stuff yourself.



Apr 29, 2011 at 02:48 AM
slrl0ver
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Outsourcing post processing


Do any of you have concerns about the outsourcing company using the pics for their own use? For instance, there was recently a story about a Dutch company using people's Flickr photos on a commercial billboard. Another is Virgin:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/central/discuss/72157600541608353/

Maybe I'm mistaken here, but it seems like there is an implicit trust between the photographer and the client that the photos won't be handed to a third-party (unless there is some kind of consent). I think everyone understands photos might be printed at a lab, but how many think it can be processed by someone else?

My personal opinion is that I wouldn't want my wedding pictures handled by anyone other than the photographer, whether the outsourcing were India, China, Russia or an African country.

- slrl0ver



Apr 30, 2011 at 03:32 PM
v.bampton
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Outsourcing post processing


That's a matter of trusting the person you choose to work with slrl0ver, just like sending photos to a lab to be printed or films to be scanned. It's just a lab like any other, with the same moral and legal obligations. Use good judgment in who you choose, and if you're concerned, make sure you get something in writing.


May 01, 2011 at 02:36 AM
RDKirk
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Outsourcing post processing


v.bampton wrote:
That's a matter of trusting the person you choose to work with slrl0ver, just like sending photos to a lab to be printed or films to be scanned. It's just a lab like any other, with the same moral and legal obligations. Use good judgment in who you choose, and if you're concerned, make sure you get something in writing.


That means making no assumptions of "normal business practices" when dealing with parties in other countries--get it in writing.



May 01, 2011 at 09:24 AM
slrl0ver
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Outsourcing post processing


v.bampton,

I'm speaking more from the consumer side, rather than the person who would have shots outsourced to be post-processed. As RDKirk says, you could get it in writing. But if someone in India violates the law, how will you, the photographer in Omaha, Nebraska go find that guy and make sure he rectifies the situation?

Personally I'm strongly against outsourcing (at the very least to a third-world country) because I think it's a short-term solution with long-term problems. At my place of employment (a big electronics company) we have outsourced many aspects of what we do. The quality has suffered, but once management becomes addicted to the "low price" the hidden cost of fixing mistakes seems to absent from said cost savings. We are also training people who will or have become our competitors. No one will talk about it because we underlings are powerless to change, we are forced to do what we've been told.

Anyway, I wasn't attempting to polarize the discusion, I'm just curious what the thinking here is on such matters.

- slrl0ver



May 02, 2011 at 02:15 AM
v.bampton
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Outsourcing post processing


I wouldn't disagree with you slrl0ver. You have to be careful in who you select, for sure. This isn't just a case of making widgets.

I guess the question then, is why one is choosing to outsource. Is it for low cost labor, or is for expertise. You outsource your healthcare to a doctor, your legal matters to a lawyer, your printing to a lab. You don't build the album yourself, or repair your camera when it breaks. It's just a question of finding a line that you're comfortable with.



May 02, 2011 at 02:43 AM
Dan Berg
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Outsourcing post processing


Alex,
I hope you are finding the help are are looking for. As soon as I saw your request I new the response ratio would be very heavy towards talking you out of this. I teach printmaking and mounting workshops at my studio/gallery and get quite a few folks through here. 70% have the latest Photoshop.
95% have Lightroom. If you are at this level and have not even tried Lightroom to date you need to give it a shot.
You can go through these so quickly in Lightroom and your "eyes" get a chance to see the results instantly. In Lightroom you can process 1 image and then sync the changes to the other 100 and your done.
Just some food for thought.

Dan Berg

www.bergscanvasgallery.com
www.bergscanvasgallery.blogspot.com



May 02, 2011 at 05:14 AM
alexhibbert
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Outsourcing post processing


Thanks all for the input. I've received samples back from most and they've left me not too impressed. Highlights not well controlled and all too warm. For 29c per image it adds up quickly. Think I'll stick to ACR6 and Bridge! Not sure about sync-ing edits across a batch though Dan, unless the images are VERY similar - the white and black points should differ in every image.


May 04, 2011 at 03:05 AM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Outsourcing post processing


I actually like doing this sort of work, and offered to do it for nothing just to learn. I've used Photoshop for quite a few years, and learned to do masks and layers through help here and various other places. But wanted to take it to the next level.
Alas that didn't even work, although I did get a few images for one woman who wanted to have some items taken out of a picture.
I've taken a few John Shaw workshops as well, and learned quite a bit, but thats the thing it never really stops, your always learning.
Would anyone venture how to take it to a level where you might do it for a living?



Sep 13, 2011 at 01:40 PM
jchin
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Outsourcing post processing


Do any of these companies offer a free trial? Say we send them a few photos and they send back edited versions.


Sep 15, 2011 at 08:34 AM
HerbChong
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Outsourcing post processing


the only person i would outsource image culling to is someone i would be willing to marry. seriously, that is most of what determines my artistic vision over someone else's. post processing, maybe but it depends on what. for portrait work, i would be willing to let someone else post process once i have the culling and cropping done. for landscape and fine art work, no-one touches anything until they have worked with me and on my stuff for many years. it's not necessary though. i am nearly as fast as Butch while doing my fine art work. 500+ shots down to 20 finished selects takes an evening or two. most of that time, probably 2/3 is spent culling and the rest waiting for plugins and other such things to process.

Herb....



Sep 15, 2011 at 12:17 PM
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