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Archive 2017 · 1DX II Sensor issues

  
 
Chimping
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · 1DX II Sensor issues


therealthings wrote:
Ok so i had my sensor 'cleaned'. They took over an hour to do it and claimed that it was not an easy job. On the LCD everything looked much better than before. But when i returned home i saw the same streaks others have posted. Seems like some of the residue is still on the sensor.

Before:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m60p96xsb8t3do2/voor.jpg?dl=0

After:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j70kehizg0b4r7u/na.jpg?dl=0

You tell me...


That's not residue, that's a defect in the sensor stack similar to what I experienced, albeit to a lesser extent. You are not seeing those lines in the "Before" shot because your photo was taken at ISO 3200 which blurs them out. Your "After" shot was at ISO 200.

You are now the seventh 1DX2 that I've seen with this issue, and I've only ever had chance to see files from nine different cameras.

Thankfully your 'lines' seem to be rather small and will likely only appear when pushing the photo via the Dehaze tool, or massively adjusting the contrast, similar to what you have done in your example.

If your camera is still under warranty you can try and petition Canon for a sensor replacement. They replaced the sensor on my first 1DX2 for this reason. However, these lines do not appear that bad and might not even show during normal shooting. It might not be worth the hassle. There's also the question of whether you'd get a replacement sensor with the same problem.



EDIT:


As far as the sensor dust is concerned, it's hard to tell how good of a job they've done when only looking at a small margin of the photo. There is definitely still dust/oil where you have zoomed in to. That being said, however, at f/32 practically everything will show. At a more normal operating aperture of say f//16-20 it won't as visible, or noticeable at all. I don't sweat it with this camera anymore if I can't see dust at f/11.

I have literally had to adjust my own perception of what is acceptable using these 1D cameras.



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:02 AM
Gust
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · 1DX II Sensor issues


It is 100% scratched sensor. the same damage was on my sensor last year.



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:09 AM
Chimping
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Gust wrote:
It is 100% scratched sensor. the same damage was on my sensor last year.


No, it's not damaged. It's a defect. If you look at the sensor it will appear fine. These lines are under the glass.


EDIT:

I'll dig up the photo of what my sensor looked like after it was scratched by a cleaning tech. A scratch appears darker than these lines.

Again, these lines are underneath the glass of the sensor stack.

Edited on Oct 03, 2017 at 11:21 AM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:17 AM
therealthings
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Full size before@ ISO250:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/latywkqf2qikvoa/_W8I6594.jpg?dl=0

Full size after @ ISO200:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqg7y5qb8c3l29h/_W8I7011.jpg?dl=0

You can see they managed to get a lot of debris off, but there is still a fair amount present. And like you said, the streaks were there on the before image as well! hmm....



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:21 AM
Chimping
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · 1DX II Sensor issues


therealthings wrote:
Full size before@ ISO250:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/latywkqf2qikvoa/_W8I6594.jpg?dl=0

Full size after @ ISO200:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqg7y5qb8c3l29h/_W8I7011.jpg?dl=0


I can still see the lines in the before shot.

Give me a few minutes and I'll go to my editing computer and I'll highlight them.



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:24 AM
Chimping
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Please take a look here:

This is your "Before" shot.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/as7atondl636svn/Before%20EDITED.jpg?dl=0

Edited on Oct 03, 2017 at 11:42 AM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:28 AM
therealthings
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Chimping wrote:
Please take a look here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/as7atondl636svn/Before%20EDITED.jpg?dl=0


Yes, read my reply again... I confirmed that already.



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:42 AM
Chimping
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · 1DX II Sensor issues


therealthings wrote:
Yes, read my reply again... I confirmed that already.


Sorry, missed that.

The plot thickens.

When did you purchase your camera? Was it part of the first production batch? I have a theory that the earth quake in Japan last year may have affected the fabrication process of the initial production of the sensors.


Just so you have more to work with if you want to make a complaint to Canon, here's a few more pictures from cameras I've had in my possession.


This is from a CPS Loaner camera when my first 1DX2 was in for its sensor replacement. As you can see, the same lines are present:

CPS Loaner 1DX2


Here's what the sensor looked like from my original 1DX2:

First 1DX2 Sensor


Here's your sensor from the RAW shot you sent me the other day:

therealthing's Sensor EDIT




And, just for good measure, here's what an actual sensor scratch looks like. This was clearly visible on the sensor's surface. Again, the other markings from the above examples were not visible.

Sensor Scratch



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:52 AM
therealthings
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Hmm...
The rest of the 1Dx Mark II owners became rather silent.



Oct 03, 2017 at 12:28 PM
Chimping
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · 1DX II Sensor issues


therealthings wrote:
Hmm...
The rest of the 1Dx Mark II owners became rather silent.



I found when I brought this issue up last year people either didn’t care, denied the problem still, or were just too busy to check. A few people helped me out, to whom I am grateful, but I didn’t get too much traction otherwise.

At that time, however, I was a pretty early adopter. Perhaps now that the camera has been on the market for over a year more people will respond and take a closer look at their sensors.

Like I said, I have a theory that it’s possibly a sensor production issue stemming from the earth quake last year. It’s possible that the issue is completely fixed now. I haven’t seen any new cameras produced recently to say with any concrete evidence, though.





Oct 03, 2017 at 02:38 PM
therealthings
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · 1DX II Sensor issues




Chimping wrote:
I found when I brought this issue up last year people either didn’t care, denied the problem still, or were just too busy to check. A few people helped me out, to whom I am grateful, but I didn’t get too much traction otherwise.

At that time, however, I was a pretty early adopter. Perhaps now that the camera has been on the market for over a year more people will respond and take a closer look at their sensors.

Like I said, I have a theory that it’s possibly a sensor production issue stemming from the earth quake last
...Show more

Last year i created 2 threads for this. It was put down by some that claimed that lensrentals called it a non-issue. I contacted Artie about it but never got a response. 2 other dutch photographers i spoke with had the same trouble. Several more photogs here have written articles about similar experiences. My Canon rep. Today confirmed this is an issue but since it has been reported so little, Canon will likely never do a recall but probably fix it in a 3rd version just before the olympics.



Oct 03, 2017 at 02:57 PM
Chimping
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · 1DX II Sensor issues


therealthings wrote:
Last year i created 2 threads for this. It was put down by some that claimed that lensrentals called it a non-issue. I contacted Artie about it but never got a response. 2 other dutch photographers i spoke with had the same trouble. Several more photogs here have written articles about similar experiences. My Canon rep. Today confirmed this is an issue but since it has been reported so little, Canon will likely never do a recall but probably fix it in a 3rd version just before the olympics.


I seem to remember your threads, or at least a thread someone started on the sensor dust/oil issue awhile back. I also remember that after Roger Cicala spoke out that everyone jumped on the bandwagon of poo pooing those who said they had an issue with sensor cleanings. That irritated me to no end, but what can you do when no one wants to listen to begin with?

I have personally seen enough of these cameras now to know two things:

1) There's an issue with the sensors getting dirtier faster than other models.

2) There's a sensor stack issue.

As far as cleaning the sensors goes, maybe Roger is right and the sensors are not any more sensitive than other sensors?... However, I had my sensor scratched from a cleaning and a $1700 CAD bill (which was covered by the sensor cleaner). That's the first time I'd ever seen a sensor scratched like that. Now I only let Canon clean my sensors because I'm terrified of something going wrong.


I have mentioned this already in this thread, but I would put money down on the fact that the majority of 1D users don't stop their lenses down. So many users of this camera shoot primarily sports or some other type of action photography where their lenses stay wide open, or don't go narrower than f/5.6. So, to them, sensor dust and weird lines are indeed a nonissue.

The occasional time when these shooters do stop down and notice their sensors are dirty they clean it quickly and off they go again.


I agree with your Canon rep; I sincerely doubt anything is going to be done at this point.


I can tell you from my own stand point, however, that after owning both the original and the Mark II, they will be my last 1D cameras. For a flagship product there's been too many glaring issues that have affected me to want to give another generation a try. For those that don't have issues or don't care, I'm happy for you.



Oct 03, 2017 at 03:42 PM
Herb
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Chimping wrote:
I seem to remember your threads, or at least a thread someone started on the sensor dust/oil issue awhile back. I also remember that after Roger Cicala spoke out that everyone jumped on the bandwagon of poo pooing those who said they had an issue with sensor cleanings. That irritated me to no end, but what can you do when no one wants to listen to begin with?

I have personally seen enough of these cameras now to know two things:

1) There's an issue with the sensors getting dirtier faster than other models.

2) There's a sensor stack issue.

As far
...Show more

How many shutter actuations does you camera have? Mine has about 28,000



Oct 03, 2017 at 03:47 PM
Chimping
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Herb wrote:
How many shutter actuations does you camera have? Mine has about 28,000


My current Mark II is shy of 10,000. My original unit Canon replaced also had approximately 10,000 at the time. They replaced my camera last year before Christmas.

My second 1DX has around 50,000 now.



Oct 03, 2017 at 03:52 PM
kosin
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Chimping wrote:
I have mentioned this already in this thread, but I would put money down on the fact that the majority of 1D users don't stop their lenses down. So many users of this camera shoot primarily sports or some other type of action photography where their lenses stay wide open, or don't go narrower than f/5.6. So, to them, sensor dust and weird lines are indeed a nonissue.



Isn't this true for other camera owners as well? Portrait photographers also shoot wide open with their 5D cameras and barely ever need to clean the sensors since they don't see the dust at f/2.8. On the other hand, I know some of the landscape photographers that shoot at f/16 and "curse" at all full frame cameras as they are known to be a dust magnets For them, every full frame camera has been an issue with dust. Was it an oil? I'm not sure, as they were able to clean it all. I wouldn't be surprise if the same was true for Nikon cameras.

As for those lines on the sensor, I won't comment at the moment, as it is the first time I hear about this issue.

Were this lines visible also on 1DX's files? Or is it only an 1DXII issue?

I would think the best would be to collect samples, let say at f/22, from a larger group of 1DXII owners, as well as 5Ds (5DIII, 5DsR, 5DIV) and even Nikon full frame cameras and see if this indeed is only an issue with 1DX cameras.



Oct 03, 2017 at 08:00 PM
arbitrage
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Well I knew I had two spots showing up at f/5.6-f/8 but I hadn't run a f/22 test or cleaned since last Feb.

Here is the result (turned to B&W and played with contrast to show it better)......

I'll give it a wet clean and see how much I can improve it....it has gone through 100s of lens/TC changes, trips to CR and Florida and lots of outings since its last cleaning. But there is that upper left trend seen on mine also.







Oct 03, 2017 at 08:42 PM
kosin
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · 1DX II Sensor issues


arbitrage wrote:
But there is that upper left trend seen on mine also.


I know that I hypothesized different causes of this “upper left trend” but at the moment, I’m thinking that maybe this is how the Automatic Cleaning is working. It moves the dust to the bottom of the sensor, and maybe that corner has more “static charge” and collects more dust. Don’t forget that left corner of the image is actually the lower right corner of the sensor. It is possible that Canon designed the Automatic Cleaning with the center of the sensor being a priority not worrying about the corners. I rarely get a dust on the center of the frame. Most of it is always in the corners or in the lower/upper parts of the image.

Arbitrage, I believe you have more cameras than 1DXII. If possible, and it doesn’t have to be right away, can you see how 5DIV and Nikon cameras compare with handling dust to your 1DXII?

I don’t see any lines in Arbitrage’s image



Oct 03, 2017 at 09:55 PM
Chimping
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · 1DX II Sensor issues


kosin wrote:
Isn't this true for other camera owners as well? Portrait photographers also shoot wide open with their 5D cameras and barely ever need to clean the sensors since they don't see the dust at f/2.8. On the other hand, I know some of the landscape photographers that shoot at f/16 and "curse" at all full frame cameras as they are known to be a dust magnets For them, every full frame camera has been an issue with dust. Was it an oil? I'm not sure, as they were able to clean it all. I wouldn't be surprise if the
...Show more

Maybe...but I still think that a lot of people with 5D cameras are shooting landscapes or portraits that require stopping down, such as group shots, more frequently than those with 1D cameras.

Perhaps my theory is wrong? I have no way of knowing for sure without polling people...and that's not likely to happen.



The lines are only visible, to my knowledge, on 1DX Mark II sensors. I have never seen them on any original 1DXs, or any other Canon cameras.



Oct 03, 2017 at 10:25 PM
rscheffler
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · 1DX II Sensor issues


Chimping wrote:
I would put money down on the fact that the majority of 1D users don't stop their lenses down. So many users of this camera shoot primarily sports or some other type of action photography where their lenses stay wide open, or don't go narrower than f/5.6. So, to them, sensor dust and weird lines are indeed a nonissue.

The occasional time when these shooters do stop down and notice their sensors are dirty they clean it quickly and off they go again.


This is kind of true for me. If shooting sports with long lenses, it is 99.9% of the time wide open either because of dark venues or for subject/background separation. Similar is true shooting weddings. Studio portraits however are often at f/8 so I can get nose and eyes in focus. Here dust does become more of a problem, but usually only larger specks, easily resolved with a quick cleaning. I've also used these cameras for architecture and dust has been a major problem if I don't clean the sensors before the shoot. In this situation, I've had similar serious dust/specks problems with both the 1DX and 1DXII and it does seem like the top corners are the worst. My 1DX is currently at 997K actuations and the 1DXII is at 433K. Both were dusty for a recent shoot where I often stopped down past f/8 with wide lenses. After that I did a dry cleaning using the Dust-Aid 'stamper' tool ahead of the second edition of the shoot a week later, which helped a fair amount. I generally try to avoid wet cleanings whenever possible. I'll use the stamper for overall cleaning and follow up with the sensor-pen and SpeckGrabber tools to target individual specks.

My Leica digital M cameras have actually been more annoying than my 1DX models, but I typically use those with wide angle lenses and very often stopped down a fair amount. It's not uncommon for those to collect quite large bits of dust at inopportune times. They're essentially mirrorless cameras, though the shutter is always closed, but I do change lenses a lot. BTW, for the last few years there has been an ongoing recall by Leica to replace the M9 sensor due to the original cover glass specifications resulting in its coating degrading over time, particularly in more humid environments. Eventually 'pinholes' develop. Those appear as specks with a dark ring and a lighter center. My M9 eventually developed the problem and Leica replaced the sensor at no charge (though they recently stopped offering this as a free repair).

If I shot only Canon and did a lot more architecture and landscape work, I'd probably settle on the 5DS model. But the majority of my work is action related, whether it's sports, events or weddings and the 1DX models better suit my requirements. I have to admit, for most of what I shoot, sensor dirt/dust/oil specks have been pretty much a non-issue.



Oct 03, 2017 at 10:29 PM
Chimping
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · 1DX II Sensor issues


kosin wrote:
I know that I hypothesized different causes of this “upper left trend” but at the moment, I’m thinking that maybe this is how the Automatic Cleaning is working. It moves the dust to the bottom of the sensor, and maybe that corner has more “static charge” and collects more dust. Don’t forget that left corner of the image is actually the lower right corner of the sensor. It is possible that Canon designed the Automatic Cleaning with the center of the sensor being a priority not worrying about the corners. I rarely get a dust on the center of the
...Show more

Unless you know where to look, you must adjust the contrast substantially to see the lines. Once you know where they are you can usually make them out on an unedited photo, albeit they will be quite faint. The best way of locating them, I have found, is to have Lightroom CC with the Dehaze slider pushed to the maximum.

As far as the lines go, my 5D3, 5DsR, and 1DX don't have any. My 1DX2 replacement has one tiny line that I can make out in the top right, and it's not something I am going to worry about this time around.

Like I said, my original 1DX2 still was the worst I have seen. The lines were absolutely everywhere - and most evident on the middle left of the frame. The replacement sensor Canon put in it was actually perfect...I couldn't find a single line. Then I had the sensor cleaned and the tech scratched it. So...now I have my 1DX2 replacement camera with one line showing.

That's also an interesting theory about the auto cleaning. It's possible!



Oct 03, 2017 at 10:30 PM
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